Are our Elite spoiled brats or prima donnas?

[graeme]

Freefall, quit with the niceness, some of us were enjoying watching this!

Seriously, this is a particularly important debate now. The elites are about to lose their funding, and they'd better engage with the rest of us sharpish if they want any money at all. So thanks at this point to Edinburgh Centre of Excellence for the Scottish Nights Map

I've never been involved with any squad or elite committee, but I have organised a lot of elite races, and I know many of the elites quite well. Even Mharky thinks I know what I'm talking about . And I'm in the "spoilt" camp myself. There are far too many requirements placed on organisers to do this, that and the other thing "for" the elites, extracting resource from the rest of the event. To name a few...
Start location
Drinks controls (when not needed on other courses)
Separate start block
Mapped warm-up area
Different map scales
Unshared controls
External (and late) control on start times.
...
Some of these have gone away down the years, but the defining features are what mharky said "Those decisions are made by old men on committees." and from the athletes "we never asked for it".

Many of the elite athletes are a bit self-centred (though curiously, this doesn't seem to apply to the very best ones). But what they don't get credit for, because it is slow and indirect, is the pressure on everyone to drive up standards. Without the elite we'd all be running round in football boots, cotton kit with OS-based maps and pin punches.

[Mrs H]

I
Your question should really be where have all the 21-34 age group orienteers gone.

Well - as I've been banging on for years - for starters BOF have actively and systematically removed most of the mechanisms to keep them in.

As for elite requirements - why cannot the international programme run their own show. In my club we have a couple of very keen radio orienteers - they are clearly barmy but harmless. They regularly ask very nicely if they can piggy back an event onto one of our ordinary ones and we say yes. They then get on with everything they need to do and are no trouble to us. They have their own starts/finishes, control sites etc obviously that may not be necessary for elites - why not just give the person in charge an all controls map and tell them to plan their own course to meet the particular needs of the elites in the phase of their training programme. They could choose any events which terrain and timing were suitable.

[NeilC]

As for elite requirements - why cannot the international programme run their own show.

They certainly have done this. A few years ago Dave Peel brought the squad along to an event with which I was involved and having decided that the M21L course on offer was not what the squad needed at that time planned an additional few km for them to do.

[graeme]

As for elite requirements - why cannot the international programme run their own show.

The elite set up the UK cup for themselves in the 1990s, killing the "National Events" as elite races. Some of mharkys OMOCs haven't noticed yet, and that's the cause of freefall's problem!
Here in Edinburgh, the divisive "Centre of Excellence" has split EUOC into the elites and the rest. They currently have the best group of elites and the best group of non-elites I can remember.
I may be doing a disservice to the efforts of some splendid individual students here.

Your question should really be where have all the 21-34 age group orienteers gone.

Since there's a tendency to regard all 21s as "elites", (and more absurdly, 18s and 20s too) maybe they decided they didn't want to become spoilt brats...

[FATBB]

Many of the elite athletes are a bit self-centred

Come on then. Name names...

[EddieH]

Graeme perceptively wrote "The elite set up the UK cup for themselves in the 1990s, killing the "National Events" as elite races."

And that is exactly what will happen with the regional championships if the new UK League or whatever its called comes into play and they are not selected. BOF will at a stroke kill off their recent recversion to Regional champs as special level A races.

I am not making any comment on desirabilty - merely pointing out what will happen.

[Rich R]

As has been said a long hard race which isn't that important is not the right type of training for an Elite at this time of year. A normal weekends training at this time of year for the Elite would typically comprise a long steady run and a shorter higher intensity session and would want to include some orienteering if possible.

The problem is that, it is much better for the orienteering to be either in small busts, to analyse performance between exercises and make adjustments/ test different skills, or run steadily so analysis can be done on the run.

I've just come back from a weeks training in southern Spain (barbate) run by Sun O with maps provided of many different exercises and techniques (contour only, no north lines etc) with tapes out in the forest at control sites. It was supurb and exactly what elites are looking for. As has been suggested it would be much better for the elite at many B/C events to have all controls maps or a number of small exercises that the elite could adapt to their training requirements.

Incidently, we are taking the EMJOS to the north east to run the Northern Champs events so I will be running M21E abeit at a steadier pace than I would normally.

[Kitch]

Here in Edinburgh, the divisive "Centre of Excellence" has split EUOC into the elites and the rest. They currently have the best group of elites and the best group of non-elites I can remember.
...

Don't read into this that EUOC is a split or divided club in any way. They are certainly a club of two halves but those two sides display massive pride and support for one another. I actually think they are quite a phenomenon.
(based on sight of their regular e-mail circulations)

[King Penguin]

Picking up on an earlier point made in this topic - confusion over whether there should be 20 or 28 courses .....

To my mind even 20 is excessive for most events.
I can understand the need for multiple different CLASSES - we have 5-yr age bands after all - but why so many COURSES ?
Surely the number of courses should be dictated by the expected number of attendees, start intervals etc. not by the number of theoretical classes ?
I have seen plenty of event results by class with lots of classes with no runners, so planning separate courses for them is simply a waste of time and effort.

Assuming White = 1 km and M elite = 12 km (yes, I know it's often longer at major events), 28 courses means there is on average about 400m difference between adjacent courses (and yes I know there are TD variations as well).

Put another way, with attendance at many events between 100 and 300 that's on average somewhere between 4 and 11 runners per course - so all could theoretically be inquorate for ranking points !!!

Might I suggest a possible "rule of thumb" that the number of courses should be no more than expected attendees / 20 - so 200 runners = 10 courses
(and no that does not mean that for 1,000 runners you have to have 50 courses).

I may be way beyond "elite" years (and was before I ever found the sport) but I still enjoy running Blacks (assuming the area is up to it) - except when there are only a handful (literally) of other runners on the course.

[andypat]

Jeez - you turn your back for a second and this happens!
Well done for stirring up a hornets nest freefall and getting your first "F" from Mharky as the SOA PO.

Find myself agreeing with Mharky for almost the first time! We do have elites, and we are lucky enough to now have one or two who are or have been competitive at a world level.

Our club recently ran an excellent coaching event at which we (ie me at 1200 or so in the ranking list) were advised to plan our years and only go to events that fit in with our overall goals for the year. If that works for the likes of me, then I can totally understand why Elites might want to do the same. Surely thats the same for any athletes. Theres elite athletes who miss the commonwealth games because it doesnt fit in with their Olymic or WC plans. Not sure that the Northern Champs should be offended, if elites decide they are better off training or competing elsewhere. Its a fair old trek from up here.

Mind you - Masters cup you say ......

[Sunlit Forres]

it is much better for the orienteering to be either in small busts

I quite agree.

[frog]

If the elites don't want alot of the "long hard" races and no-one else enters them then I think someone in BOF should be looking again at the length and number of the various 21 categories.
I never ran the long course as a W21 as it was too far for someone too idle/ busy with other stuff to do that much training.
Do we lose alot of orienteers in that age group because professionally and family wise they are likely to be very busy so not likely to do 21 L or E races unless in a squad and don't want to do the short races that are regarded as a bit noddy.
Perhaps some folk do short road races or short hill races instead where you can do the same distance as everyone else and not be regarded as a wimp for not doing the "right" course for your age.
I do think that between M/W16 and 35 inclusive you require a greater degree of fitness to do the long courses compared to the other age classes.
At the same time if we don't do longer courses for those age groups we aren't going to get orienteers up to a level of fitness to be able to compete internationally.

[Mrs H]

and don't want to do the short races that are regarded as a bit noddy.
.

.......and that's another thing I've been banging on about for years

[distracted]

I'm finding myself agreeing with Mharky as well!

The low entry for the Northern and Midland Champs emphasises many points we already know:

- People aren't as willing to travel long distances to events any more unless there is good reason to do so e.g. Selection races.
- "Big" events on the extremeties of the country/away from large population centres won't attract large numbers of competitors.
- There aren't very many people in the 21-35 age group, and fewer willing/able/wanting to go to this sort of event.
- The timing of these events and the necessity for elite courses aren't compatible with a high elite turnout.

Your question should really be where have all the 21-34 age group orienteers gone.

Well - as I've been banging on for years - for starters BOF have actively and systematically removed most of the mechanisms to keep them in.

Mrs H - this isn't the main reason. It doesn't help, but then there are plenty of other reasons that older juniors don't carry on in the sport, and it is something seen in the majority of sports.

Something that's noticeable is that the age range of clubs/that clubs attract to their events is directly related to the type, nature and frequency of activities/events that they host, and the demographics of the area that they cover. And Mrs H - I think you were one of the first to demostrate this with your MADO initiative - you marketed the events at families, and families turned up. As there are many activities competing for our time, if you don't market at and provide for the 21 demographic, you can't expect them to turn up...

[andy]

29/394 competitors are in the M/W20 - M/W35 (inclusive) range. Stuff the elites, it's the entire demographic that's lacking (as other have said / alluded to above)