Students treated as adults for levy?

[Scott]

I don't mean to be negative, but the reservation I would have is that this adds extra workload onto on the day organisation - having to record the numbers of students. Numbers of juniors can be calculated from the results.

But if clubs are offering a student discount anyway (which a lot are), and if the club sees the levy as a "tax" (which, rightly or wrongly, a lot do), it's in their interest to count up the number of student discounts they gave. To reiterate: I'm not proposing compelling anyone to offer a student discount - if your local events charge a low, flat entry fee then I can't see a problem with that. I just don't think clubs that do offer it should feel that they are losing out too badly financially, else they might stop doing so.

If a club offers a student discount but does decide that saving a few quid in levy is not worth the extra hassle of counting students, then that's up to them, although with pre-entry events it's easy to work out anyway, and the three clubs I have sat behind EOD desks for have all had meticulous systems for recording who-paid-what.

[SeanC]

Yes, point taken, with the low numbers of students in the SE we could just not bother to count students, loose out on a few quid levy reduction but save ourselves some work. I guess around Edinburgh and Sheffield this is more important.

We have been offering student discounts at our district/regional events BTW.

[Mrs H]

I. To recruit more in this age range many clubs need advice

I haven't even got as far as recruitment - I'm talking about hanging on to the ones we've already got.

It seems to me that almost all schools development work goes down the pan once the youngsters have moved on and a good proportion of those who orienteered with their families drift away at that time too unless they have made it into some kind of squad or an active uni orienteering club (how many of those have we got now half a dozen or so?)

I've been banging on about this for ages BOF Central have systematically removed incentive after incentive in this quarter (M/W 20s out of the YBT, castrated FCC, non-existent tours, non-replacement of the university development officer etc etc) and now this - when is anyone going to do something positive and encouraging for this age group? It's a very bad joke

[Becks]

But then comes a grey area where I am less comfortable ~ the mature student and the post graduate researcher. Shouldn't we be considering a cut off point of say age 25 years when these orienteers start to pay the adult rate ?

I really resent the view that the PhD researcher should be paying full adult rates in this view. Had I needed to pay full fees for the JK/British, or any large scale events as a PhD Student throughout my PhD, I would have been unable to. As a PhD student you generally get just over £1000 a month, that's just over £12000 a year to live on. Your uni is generally in the city centre of a busy university town, so you pay extortionate rent. You generally have no savings thanks to using those to pay for your undergrad, so you're lucky to have a car to get you to events. And then, like me, there's always the chance you'll have to finish off your PhD entirely unpaid (yup, that's 6 months of working like a dog for absolutely no cash.) In that period orienteering kept me sane - I couldn't have done that if I'd had to pay full fees. Do not treat full time post grads any differently to undergrads - they're often in a worse situation.

I'm pretty sure most of the clubs I've been in have also had an "unwaged" option to pay, but I have never seen anyone use it on my time at registration. The question of a retirement discount is also a good (but dangerous?) one, considering the sport's current demographic.

[smf]

I'm pretty sure most of the clubs I've been in have also had an "unwaged" option to pay, but I have never seen anyone use it on my time at registration.

Around Edinburgh they don't. SoSOL's don't, SOL's don't, Scottish Six days doesn't, JK doesn't.

[*Carol*]

I really resent the view that the PhD researcher should be paying full adult rates in this view. Had I needed to pay full fees for the JK/British, or any large scale events as a PhD Student throughout my PhD, I would have been unable to. As a PhD student you generally get just over £1000 a month, that's just over £12000 a year to live on. Your uni is generally in the city centre of a busy university town, so you pay extortionate rent. You generally have no savings thanks to using those to pay for your undergrad, so you're lucky to have a car to get you to events..........Do not treat full time post grads any differently to undergrads - they're often in a worse situation.

Spot. On.

I'm trying to return to orienteering, as a PhD student, without the support of a university club or family near by (and hence no subsidies). Cheaper entry fees make this all the more feasible, given that I face horrendous train costs while not being able to afford to buy/run a car. It's not enough to cap the student rates at 25 - the majority of PhD students I know are mature students when they start.

[Becks]

I have definitely seen it on entry boards - AIRE or OUOC maybe? If AIRE could have been a long time ago.

[Clive Coles]

I note Mrs H thinks I was missing her point ~ I actually think I was backing her point that the under 25's are having a tough financial time. I would be quite happy to see the junior discount renamed to something like Youth discount and applied to all orienteers under 25 years old.

That definition would encompass both undergraduates, the young unemployed and the newly qualified graduates the early days of their working life. All groups which need encouragement to stay in orienteering. But that's as far as I would go. it should be quite simple to implement.

The extension of the discount beyond 25 years old is IMO a valid debating point I know it is tough for Mature Students and Post-graduate Researchers to balance their budgets but that's their career choice. It's an adult world now ~ they are big boys and girls.. Why are they more deserving than anyone else to receive a subsidy ? They don't seem to have difficulty affording the travel costs to get to their Major fixtures and league events all over the country ~ surely a far more significant cost for their wallet than an event fee discount. Every discount we offer has to be offset by a contribution from the rest of us.

I have to confess my comment regarding an "oldies" discount was a bit tongue in cheek. It was a balancing argument to illustrate a point of view rather than a specific recommendation.

I am hoping that the Board will be holding a wide ranging review of membership categories, membership fees. discounts , levy and funding subsidies before coming up with a series of recommendations. There should be no sacred cows ~ they need to challenge how we have got where we are. Let's aim to simplify; let's try to get away from having to produce various cards to prove we are entitled to anything . Above all ~ let's get it right . And yes ~ the solution does need to be fair.

[smf]

I note Mrs H thinks I was missing her point ~ I actually think I was backing her point that the under 25's are having a tough financial time.

Not just the under 25's.

[Clive Coles]

Agree it's not just the under 25's ~ everyone ( unless you are an Investment banker) awaiting their bonus ) is fealing the pinch.

The challenge for me is to find an answer for when an individual takes financial responsibility for their career choices. When should they stop receiving subsidies and pay the full cost of being an adult.

25 years may be the wrong age cut of point, but does anyone else have a different suggestion ? But why should folk in their 50's who acquire a student card by choosing to go back to Uni or the Open University be subsidised by those who are struggling to balance their own budgets.

Further education has now developed into a life time option ~ how can we fairly balance expectations with responsibility ?

[Becks]

Bullshit.

So I should sacrifice my contribution to coaching, to planning, to organising and at one point, to BOF management, all because I chose to take a route ridiculously undervalued by society as a whole?

Almost all my trips to big events were with EUOC, who provide subsidised minibuses to everything important. I dread to think how difficult and expensive it is for someone like Carol, without that infrastructure.

Orienteering was the only luxury I could afford, being reasonable and excellent value for money at that price. Post grad students are a small minority, it can't cost anyone that much to charge them junior rate. But they are a large majority of the future of the sport. How many organisers, planners, and movers and shakers in British orienteering are PhDs? A way larger percentage than in your average sport. Give us a break, because society as a whole certainly isn't.


(Disclaimer: I totally understand in saying this that there are people way worse off and who may be just as worthy of discounts. But in this specific case, I am trying to say that the postgrad discount has to stay, regardless of any of these other considerations).

[mharky]

I personally don't see why old people should get a bus-pass, gas subsidies and cheap fish and chips, but there you go.

[PKJ]

But why should folk in their 50's who acquire a student card by choosing to go back to Uni or the Open University be subsidised by those who are struggling to balance their own budgets.

Surely the distinction is whether they're in full-time education. When I did an Open University course a couple of years ago I didn't for a moment expect a reduction in entry fees (to go with my discounts at McDonald's) - though it did occur to me that I might be eligible for BUCS (aged 50).
Also, postgrad students often have less opportunity to earn additional income. Personally, I'm quite happy to subsidise orienteers who are in full-time education.

And, if Carol's 'location' is right, I'm sure her local club will be willing to help.

[awk]

Don't actually yet have to declare a personal interest but let's float the idea of awarding some form of loyalty membership discount to those stalwarts who have been a BOF member for 25 or more years. They have, and many still are, keeping our clubs going.

Let's not. As someone who would comfortably qualify for such a discount, there is a far greater need to invest in the future. After all, without them, I won't have any sport later on. There is far too little support given to young adults, and as Mrs H rightly points out, what little there was is being taken away.

On the subject of people in their 50s being students and claiming discounts.....yes I did when I was in my 40s, when I was a full-time student doing a PGCE, living off savings and my OH's massive salary as a teaching assistant. The alternative would have been not orienteering at all, which I like to think might have been a bit of a loss to the sport, even if only the revenue. It also meant that I stayed in the sport, able to pay full fees when I graduated. I'm an OU student now, and continue to pay full fees, but then it's part-time and I'm earning.

What would you rather Clive - those PhD students dropping out? Take another look at the Midland Champs entry, and then take a look at the ageing profile of controllers, which is already impacting on clubs wanting to host Level B events. It's not about subsidising somebody's career choice, it's about keeping our sport alive.

You're right about Carol's location PKJ - your club and mine!

[LostAgain]

From 2012 with £9K / annum fees + living expenses I think this will be a dead subject/thread. The student population is going to plummet. University Education is returning to the province of the rich, in which case discounts are irrelevant.