Are you a secret British Orienteering member?

[Paul Frost]

If you are one of the 224 people that ticked the box relating to the following Data Protection question when you joined/renewed your membership of British Orienteering, and you plan to enter the Scottish 6 Days (and probably other online entry systems) then please see the instructions below:

Data Protection: British Orienteering may sometimes be asked to provide contact details relevant to your membership to your Club and/or Association, to another British Orienteering member, to online entry providers (entry to orienteering events) and to Data Processing Agencies working on behalf of British Orienteering. Under no circumstances will British Orienteering provide your contact details to other external organisations. If you do not agree to British Orienteering using your memberships contact details in this way please check this box.

Option 1: If you wish to maintain the secrey of your membership, you should NOT enter your BOF number in step 2 of the Fabian4 entry process. Doing so will cause the validation check to fail and you will not be able to proceed. Having removed your number you can proceed to step 3, but the system will automatically charge you the extra £2 per day for non-members.

Option 2: If you wish to amend your privacy setting you should contact the BOF office http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/page/contact_us asking them to clear the privacy flag. Your last opportunity to do this before the 1st price increase will be on Friday 28th January, since the BOF office will be closed at the weekend, and it will be too late on Monday (the last day of the 1st price band).

You should also be aware that the club that you joined does not know you exist either.

[distracted]

Given some will have deliberately checked said box, I presume that they can present their British Orienteering member cards at the event and claim back the £2 daily 'surcharge' which they have been charged?

[Paul Frost]

You pose a simple question, but the answer is not so simple.

We will have paid a commission to process the entry fee based on the total amount, so refunding the full £2 would mean a loss to the company. So should we deduct the commission paid from the £2?

If we didn't, then in effect that person is being subsidised by all the other people who paid entry fees.

Depending on how many of the 224 entered it could also be a substantial amount of work for someone to process each individual claim.

I don't know the answer, I'm just trying to prevent the problem before it occurs. The Scottish 6 Days is not the only event that will affect those wanting to maintain their secret membership, it will be every event they try and enter online.

I don't want to stop people having a right to privacy, I would just like them to understand the ramifications of their choice, as they may not be aware of them.

[greywolf]

I'm not one of the 224.... but presumably those who tick the box wish to retain control of their personal details rather than have them disseminated by BOF to a not entirely fully specified list ( e.g. they might be happy for their details to go their club, but not to "Data Processing Agencies" whoever they might be...). If BOF has sold memberships to people on the basis that they get their orienteering £2 cheaper per event then they have every reason to expect that this will be case - the text you quote doesn't suggest otherwise...

Also i'm not clear why your Option 1 (entering the BOF number in the Fabian system) causes the system to fail? Does Fabian really need to see ever single bit of membership data? Why isn't it sufficient for BOF to carry a list of 224 valid, paid up membership numbers (but without any personal identifying data) and allow online entry systems to check against these, whilst the individual's data is entered into the Fabian system on an event-by event basis?

You should also be aware that the club that you joined does not know you exist either.

Some people may be quite happy with this And if you live in an area without a local club then maybe you only joined a random club hundreds of miles away because of the stupid rule that says you can't orienteer otherwise...

[Angry Haggis]

I really don't like the way two questions are merged together here in this checkbox. I reasonably might not want unspecified third party entry providers and Data Processing Agencies (what are those?) having my personal details (particularly if they also hold my credit card information from previous entries) however I would obviously want my club to get my details. I might even want my details withheld from BOF but not my club, e.g. if I didn't want my age to be revealed in the ranking lists.

(Maybe BOF could operate an OAuth style system where I can grant access to my personal data to online entries providers and other non-club enties - kind of like you grant Facebook applications access to your Facebook personal data.)

[Paul Frost]

Also i'm not clear why your Option 1 (entering the BOF number in the Fabian system) causes the system to fail? Does Fabian really need to see ever single bit of membership data? Why isn't it sufficient for BOF to carry a list of 224 valid, paid up membership numbers (but without any personal identifying data) and allow online entry systems to check against these, whilst the individual's data is entered into the Fabian system on an event-by event basis?

It fails because there is no match in the database for that membership number, someone could be making one up to try and get the discount.

I have just asked if there is a way to get the membership numbers into the database but everything else blank.

I agree that BOF needs to find a way to resolve this, and the wording of the question could be better, but I'm just trying to raise an awareness of the issue to avoid problems later.

Perhaps there should be a multiple tick list of who you allow to see your details:
Your Club
Online entry systems
Other 3rd party orienteering related partners
None of the above

[fabian4]

FYI - I raised the issue with BOF back in September 2010 - with no response.

The problem has become worse as result of the recent renewal round, so I raised it again last week with a couple of suggestions, one of which was:

The other sensible option would be to have 4 flags one for each of club/association, online entry providers, other BOF members, and Data Processing Agencies.

The reduced data option could be a way forward, but bear in mind that if a competitor wishes to pre-enter an event, either online or by post (SEF), they are passing over the majority of their private data held by BOF anyway.

I reasonably might not want unspecified third party entry providers

Good point. Rather than just "online entry providers" perhaps something along the lines of "the following online entry providers: Fabian4, SportIdent UK & Oentries" would be better - or even a tick box for each one!!

Mike Hamilton (BOF CEO) replied on the 18th January:

We are working on a way around the problem of members, privacy and online entry managers and will get back to you once we have a solution.

No formal reply so far. Please keep the sensible suggestions coming & I will direct Mike H to this thread.

To date I have not come across a single member who hasn't changed their mind - all of them taking up option 2 so far.

(particularly if they also hold my credit card information from previous entries)

Credit card details are managed by SagePay - Fabian4 has no access to the card data itself http://www.sagepay.com/secure_shopping

[SeanC]

The online entry form is reasonably confusing as it is (local/national membership, choose region/club etc). We wouldn't want to put off the newcomer who probably doesn't know about online entries and the scottish 6 days etc with confusing opt ins and opt outs.

I would suggest that

a) People pay and join - if really necessary there is a "dont tell my club" opt in/out
b) On the confirmation page (after they've paid) there is the option to pass details onto Fabian4, SportIdent UK & Oentries explaining why this is a good idea (ie saves money and time).

Is it the first rule of selling? Make the sale - don't give them a reason to walk away and come back another day (when they might change their mind).

[pyrat]

There should be a way to query the membership db to check whether a number is valid or not. This would honour the data protection but still allow BOF discount to be applied correctly.

[Clive Coles]

I agree with you Sean

When people try to join a club it is just as important to keep the operation simple.

We Nopesort correspondants tend to be the committed regular orienteers ~ we anticipate the problems, we experience the frustrations of systems that don't quite work,we come up with lots of specific ideas which result in overcomplications.

Most newcomers to our sport will not experience a multi-day event in their first year or two of orienteering. Their interest will be developed on a diet of "entry on the day" Sunday morning events and club based activities. Pre-entry facilities are only required for level A and B events ~ it could be sometime before newcomers are ready for such challenges.

We need to sort out this matter of passing information on to clubs but don't let's clutter BOF's on-line membership application by lots of optin/out tick boxes regarding software packages they most probably have never heard of nor will need for some time.

Acquiring new members is vital to our sport but we must keep the application process as easy and straightforward as possible .

[DavidJ]

You should also be aware that the club that you joined does not know you exist either.

As I understand it, the frustrating thing for a club is that they actually know the member exists (and, possibly, has the name) but they have no way to contact them.

[Gross]

What a load of fe**IIg sh*ite

[IanD]

As I understand it, the frustrating thing for a club is that they actually know the member exists (and, possibly, has the name) but they have no way to contact them.

I suggested on another thread some time ago that the solution is for the club to send their normal mailings, whether postal or electronic, addressed to the member c/o BOF.

In accepting the membership fee, BOF has contracted with the member to give him or her the normal benefits of membership, which includes information from his or her club. BOF, which does have the member's address, is therefore obliged to pass the information on.

[roadrunner]

Although I'm one of those people who normally ticks the "don't pass my details on" box on any form I complete, I think BOF have got it wrong here. I'm sure there are other forms which state who your data will be passed on to, and if you don't like it, you don't fill in the form. In the orienteering case, I think it's completely stupid to apply to join a club and withhold your details from them (I think my club has the option to refuse membership, how can they do that if they don't know who you are?), so I'd say that your details should automatically go to club and region with no opt-out (not financial information, of course, but I don't think BOF ever passes that on). Fair enough to have an opt-out on the rest, but the consequences should be explained - and perhaps BOF should explain better why they might give your details to another member, and what the external data processing agencies do.

And I think the entry providers have to have at the very least a name, club and age class associated with each BOF number so that they can avoid cheating. (Even if they didn't get this from BOF, they have it once you've entered )

[Shropshire born]

I'am one one those secret British Orienteering member but do not enter Big/multi day events, because of the problems with entering events online and not getting the discount.