UK Masters Cup 2011

[EddieH]

I am starting this topic to try to make people aware that the talked about UK Masters Cup is starting next year, and the first incorporated event is Edinburgh City on January 22nd.

There are 19 designated events and a person's best 8 will count.

Details can be found on the BOF website under "Events" then "Competitions" then "National Senior Competitions"

All age classes from 35 upwards count.

If you want points in the league you doof course need to enter the designated course for the class you are eligible for and wish to enter.

I will maintain the scoring and attempt to give some report here on how things are going (due to the number of classes probably not in quite the detail Roger does with the Nopesport Urban League.

[andypat]

Well done for taking this on Eddie - anything that generates more interest in the sport is good and I'm quite plased I am eligible to enter an event thats called "Masters". The non-orienteering folk at my work will be quite impressed I am certain.

Hopefully the Nopesport guys will have the league events out soon so we can see if we are getting two lots of points for that weekend (three if you count the SoSol the next day)

[Neil M40]

If you want points in the league you doof course need to enter the designated course for the class you are eligible for and wish to enter.

Does this mean somebody running up scores no points at all?

For instance if an M45 runs the course designated for M40 and M35, which class do they score points in, if at all?

And thanks in advance for your efforts Eddie, I'm looking forward to it.

[Gnitworp]

I would hope an M45 'running up' would score M35 or M40 Masters Cup points, i.e, an M35 is any male (or female) over (or who turns) 35 in 2011

[Spookster]

I would hope an M45 'running up' would score M35 or M40 Masters Cup points, i.e, an M35 is any male (or female) over (or who turns) 35 in 2011

Indeed, but the question is whether they score as an M35 or M40. Deciding after the event is too late, so presumably the person concerned should declare this in advance (at least to Eddie, if not the organiser) and there should be some sort of default position for people who don't declare (for example, in this case an M45 running M35/M40 should be considered an M40 for scoring, as that's the closest class to their actual age).

[SJC]

for example, in this case an M45 running M35/M40 should be considered an M40 for scoring, as that's the closest class to their actual age

Would points scored running as an M40 be added to those scored as an M45, or if you alternated between classes would you end up with two sets of scores, one in the M40 list and one in the M45 ?

[Scott]

Yes, SCG already discussed this and agreed that running up should be allowed. Eddie (as scorer) will know the details of how people running up get assigned to classes.

Would points scored running as an M40 be added to those scored as an M45, or if you alternated between classes would you end up with two sets of scores, one in the M40 list and one in the M45 ?

You would be assigned points in the class that you scored them in, so an M45 who sometimes ran M40 but ran in M45 the rest of the time would end up with two sets of points in the different classes (but an M45 who ran up as M40 all the time would just get one set).

[NeilC]

SEOA came up with a similar solution to Spookster's:

"If a competitor runs a course other than that recommended for their age class then they shall still be eligible for a medal assuming that there is an appropriate class associated with the course being run. Where there are several possible classes then they shall automatically entered into the closest class to their actual age class. For example if an W18 runs a course above that designated for W18 but does host the W20 and W21 classes then that competitor shall automatically be deemed to be entering the W20 class.
If a competitor wants to run up to a particular class then they must inform the organiser of this. For example in the above situation then the W18 would have to inform the organiser if they wanted to compete for the W21 championship."

Not pretty but is does clarify matters and I would encourage Eddie to include similar text on the cup webpage.

[graeme]

I asked this question in the general SCG discussion, but answer came there none.

I don't like the idea of expecting organisers to deal with bespoke requests, or forcing competitors to do so in advance, which always tends to cause problems. Any scoring scheme should create no extra fuss and be automatic.

The answer seems obvious: if you're eligible, you score points. So if you're eligible for two classes, you score in both. No bespoke entry requirements, No "but I told you I wanted to do X", "No you didn't", "Yes I did" bickering. No extra processing required. simple.

This has another beneficial effect: the probelm with points for position is that small races are much easier to score points in than large ones. Since the small races are more likely to double up courses, this effect will be slightly ameliorated.

SJC: No, points scored in M40 can't be transferred to M45. You have to race the people in that age group. Not least because M35 and M40 points will be easier to get than M45 anyway...

[Neil M40]

I think people should be allowed to run up, but not that they should be allowed to state a preference for which class they compete in. You should have a rule that, given the age-class of the competitor and the age classes allocated to the course they ran, you always come to the same conclusion about which age class they were running in. This means either saying they compete in the age class closest to their own, or they compete in the highest age class for the course.

Either way doesn't bother me (and I am almost certainly going to compete exclusively in M40), but we need to be clear before the competition starts to save a lot of debate later on.

Edit : I just reread Greame's post - yes, there is the option of letting people score in all classes for which they are eligible. I am still trying to think of a reason why not.

[NeilC]

So if you're eligible for two classes, you score in both. Simple

So how would you score an event then Graeme? If M45/M50 run the same course and the finishing order is
A M45
B M45
C M50
D M60
E M45

Would A,B & E score 60, 55, 46 in M45 with C and D scoring 51 and 48 in M45 AND M50. This has the problem that someone beating all their peers could end up scoring less points than if M45 and M50 had been on different courses.

Seems fairer that C would score 60 in M50 but then would they also score 51 in M45? Would D score 55 in M50 and 48 in M45?

Is there is a simpler solution that my end-of-term brain has missed?

The reason for the choosing the class rule in the SEOA was to allow 18s to compete for the main (21) championship - also based on the premise that competitors could only win a medal in the class that they had entered.

Of course as Graeme points out M45 will be the premier class in the masters cup.

[Neil M40]

Seems fairer that C would score 60 in M50 but then would they also score 51 in M45? Would D score 55 in M50 and 48 in M45?

This is what I assumed Graeme meant. You take everybody on the course eligible for M45 (including M50s and 55s) and allocate them points from 60 down, and that is their M45 points. Then you do the same for M50, scoring from 60 down. Then the same for M55. I don't think it is particularly complicated to work out.

You could end up at the end of the year with the same person winning multiple classes. Is that a problem?
(It could happen anyway given 8 to score from 19 races)

Edit : to be honest, I am happy for Eddie to do whatever is easiest for him, provided we know what it is beforehand.

[redkite]

Why not just keep it really simple.
M45 scores on M45, M50 on M50 and M60 on M50, (nearest to his age)

[SJC]

You take everybody on the course eligible for M45 (including M50s and 55s) and allocate them points from 60 down, and that is their M45 points. Then you do the same for M50, scoring from 60 down. Then the same for M55. I don't think it is particularly complicated to work out.

It isn't complicated to work out, but for some of the classes the results could vary quite widely depending on which classes are combined at any particular event.
When you enter an event you specify an age class, so shouldn't this be taken as the one you are running in ?

[graeme]

When you enter an event you specify an age class, ?

No you don't.
Sometimes you can choose an age class. Sometimes your age class gets picked up by default from the entry system software. Sometimes it gets picked up from the BOF database. Sometimes it's just assigned by the course you enter. It's not that reliable.
And, worst of all, you may not care. Suppose an M40 and and M45 need to win the final race to win the cup. But Jorgen Martensson has come over and beats everyone (like in our CSC cup heat..). Now you have

1. Jorgen M
2=. Mr. M40
2=. Mr. M45

Now the completely equivalent position of the M40 and M45 is broken by a "choice" made by someone who probably doesn't even know the competition exists - let alone care.

Why not just keep it really simple.... M60 on M50, (nearest to his age)

Because Mr M60 was trying to win M45?