Online Entry - on the day payment

[SeanC]

I don't think the additional effort required is relevant. If clubs want to encourage people to pre-enter then they need to set their EOD surcharge/pre-entry discount at a level that will encourage the typical person to pre-enter, or find another way to encourage them. Setting a surcharge/discount is a straight forward and efficient way of doing this. Perhaps £2/£3 isn't a sufficient deterrent if EOD is increasingly popular? Maybe it should be higher still?*

* not for courses designed for beginners and juniors.

[seabird]

In recent years we have had pre-entry with a £1 differential with EOD on a few events which would from now be level C. And had inconsistent experiences.

The urban races have tended to have very high rates of pre-entry (80%+)

The one attempt to use pre-entry for a Middle Distance Race produced a response so low, that in the last week, possibly to the chagrin of the handful of pre-entrants, we reduced the EOD rate to the pre-entry rate. We ended up with a good turnout - and fortunately were optimistic enough to print enough maps.

Our club committee recently debated the whole issue of EOD for this level of event and concluded that it offered us no benefits and additional administration. But we were only considering a £1 differential.

Pre-entry will however remain the norm for our 2-3 per year urban races, where the pre-entry information has proved the most reliable in predicting numbers.

The attempt to get people to email in entries without payment has been tried by a few neighbouring clubs for night events - but not in recent years, which may will suggest that these attempts were also unsuccessful in predicting entry numbers. But I don't recall price diffentials being offered.

It's interesting to see that other clubs have, however, found pre-entry at this level of event helpful.

[Paul Frost]

Like RJ, I don't think many would object to paying a little more in event fee to make use of this service.

Are you implying that the pre-entry people pay more?

It is not always convenient for the second group to pre-plan their future weekends around orienteering.

We are only looking for about 2 days notice, just in time to help with map printing numbers. It's not like we are asking for payment, just an indication of intention.

We need both groups to sustain our sport. Sorry Paul, don't often disagree with you ~ we must not inflate the costs of entry on the day in the hope that this will encourage more commitment.

It's not about inflating the cost of entry as a punishment, it's just to reflect the true cost of printing maps on spec.
It's not only to encourage commitment, it's to reduce the cost to regular members who are in effect subsidising the casuals. Whilst we do want to encourage more people to take part in orienteering, it shouldn't be at a cost to existing members.

We seem to be so keen to encourage non-orienteers to our events that sometimes we forget that it is the regulars/members that we should think about first. They are the ones that are often helpers, committee members etc. and we need them more than the odd casual entry.

[Clive Coles]

I think Paul you are misunderstanding my earlier comments.

Clive Coles wrote:Like RJ, I don't think many would object to paying a little more in event fee to make use of this service.

Are you implying that the pre-entry people pay more? Yes ~ in my experience there has been an increase of costs for those L2 events that offer pre-entries compared with L2/3 events that don't. Fabian charge a fee ( sounds as if OO don't hence the reason for my comment) ~ the clubs not unreasonably pass this cost on to the orienteers. Whereas a year ago most old style entry on the day District events were £6 an entry now they are more often £8 +£2 for entry on the day. So everyone ends up paying more

Clive Coles wrote:It is not always convenient for the second group to pre-plan their future weekends around orienteering.

We are only looking for about 2 days notice, just in time to help with map printing numbers. It's not like we are asking for payment, just an indication of intention. If it is just 2 days I agree with you. But in my experience clubs close the lists far earlier sometimes as much as 3 weeks ahead of the event.

You shouldn't brand folk who prefer entry on the day as casual orienteers. Just look around at your next event who is manning the registration tent and supervising the car park. As lot of these helpers are regular club orienteers who may never have travelled to a pre-enty event.They are though full BOF members who have supported the club for years. The lower cost "enter on the day" Sunday event just happens to suit their family budget and other social commitments.

[SeanC]

Interesting discussion at our recent meeting. We're planning to use pre-entry at our Chelwood district event in March. Yes with a pre-entry discount. The club is not charging extra to cover the Fabian fees. Basically this is to make organisation easier, particularly the computer aspects. Fees are going to be typical district fees.. not as large as you suggest Clive (they might be more in EA?).

You probably wont be in favour of this trend Clive, but we need to encourage clubs to organise district and regional events. Viewing a club as a business it makes sense for clubs to cut back on regional/district and do more local events. Local = cheaper and easier to organise. and more likely to get new members, and more popular and useful overall to its membership (assuming district and regionals are replaced with many more local events).

Attendances at district and regionals have been declining, and the mapping expectations gives clubs hard choices between paying for a professional survey which might lead to a loss, or time consuming in house mapping, or increasing fees. I think we'll continue to see changes like this, which might not be popular with some, but necessary to keep the district/regional tier going.

Anyway pre-entry's worth the risk of loosing your fee at Chelwood if your car wont start - great area, only used once in the past 10 years.

[Paul Frost]

All the online entry systems charge, based on the amount collected, usually around 5% + VAT in some cases.

Outside of the Scottish 6 Days, EckO were the first club to use online entries in Scotland (SOL 4, 2006). One of the key reasons for using it was the saving in volunteer time processing paper entries, we didn't increase the fees to pay the commission.

I don't believe that every event calculates the exact cost to put on an event, they look around and go with whatever is the going rate. If they try to charge more they get loads of stick about profiteering. Plus as I pointed out, pre-entries save the club money as there are less maps wasted printing on spec.
So the additional cost of processing the entry is offset by the savings on map printing.

As an additional attempt to reduce the workload on volunteers EckO is now encouraging members to have their own SI card. It makes producing the results much quicker if people are in the database with a registered card.
Part of the problem has been that in Scotland a decision was made long ago to NOT charge a hire fee, so there is little incentive to buy your own.
So we explained to members how much extra work is involved and at the same time offered to sell some of the clubs stock at a slightly reduced price (£25), but with a guarantee to buy back the card if they decided to leave the sport. We've sold about 20 in a couple of weeks.

I guess the moral of this tale is that if you ask people to do things and make it clear why you are asking they will probably respond.

[ryeland of doom]

On pre entries: I have a strict budget for pre entries. I am either injured or about to be injured, always been the way and I have lost a small fortune to entry fees of events I could not get to. Things have improved of late with later deadlines, so I splash out a bit.

I will not preenter what used to be C4 events (I am completely confused as to what they are called now). Too frequent a gamble. Fortunately this has yet to be an issue. SOL's are worth it, so what if I miss a couple, it is well worth it spread over a season.

If I know I am in with a good chance of running, I am only too happy to preenter, but if compulsory, there are many events in a year that I will have to give a miss. It also depends on how much work I am getting - ie how willing I am to gamble on my fitness.

I almost always avoid events with high entry fees - too risky. No Six Days this year (unless I finally get more than a short contract ).

Notifying in advance to help guide maps is a simple courtesy and I am only too happy to comply here.

[Sunlit Forres]

We seem to be so keen to encourage non-orienteers to our events that sometimes we forget that it is the regulars/members that we should think about first. They are the ones that are often helpers, committee members etc. and we need them more than the odd casual entry.

I quite agree Paul. We shouldn't undersell ourselves. In Moravian we've just raised the entry fee for our monthly Saturday League events by £1 for non members (£4 adults £3 juniors) for the very reason that we want to encourage people to join our club.

We've steadily built up attendance at these events to a very sustainable level and see a few semi-regular names appearing who never join because there's never been an incentive to do so. You'll be pleased to know, Paul, that we also knock £1 off for having your own EMIT brikke, meaning that adult club members who have their own get to run for just £2 - juniors for £1. With at least 16 club events per year it now makes economic sense to buy one if you live in Moray!

[Adrian]

I think as many events as possible should be pre-entry, since it means we don't waste money on maps that no-one uses. If you use a good printer like Print5, entries can stay open till just a few days before the event. And you can still print a few extras for newcomers who don't know about pre-entry.

I don't agree with late entry surcharges, although I noticed at the recent Postensplain event that one third of the entries were after the £3 surcharge kicked in, so it seems that most orienteers are still well-off enough not to mind!

There is a concern about people who enter and then, for whatever reason, can't take part. They should, at the very least, have their map posted to them. And, if their map has been used by a late entry, they should get a partial refund or credit note.

[Roger]

In 1997 I took on-line entries, in addition to the postal ones, for OUOC's Badge event. Technology was simple: just a web form that e-mailed me the details (credit due to Duncan Booth here). I believe that this was the first UK event to offer on-line entry and I thought that we might get 10% of pre-entries using it; the actual tally was about 20% (~80 / ~400). On-line payment was far too expensive to be justified so people paid on the day when they collected their control cards (remember them?).

Worried about no-shows, I said in the details that anyone who failed to pay would be 'named and shamed'. Two people failed to turn up. After the event result-processing took priority but by Tuesday morning I was ready to send e-mail reminders. However, Tuesday's post brought a cheque from one entrant (had to visit the in-laws); the other (ill) e-mailed an apology and his cheque arrived the next day.

In the electronic age I've also managed the on-the-day computing and have seen how EOD causes the majority of the problems. So events that I'm involved with have fixed the numbers of maps about a week before the race but have continued to take on-line entries up to the Friday or Saturday beforehand, counting down the available maps. Pre-entry before the deadline is a bit cheaper and guarantees a map on your desired course; late on-line entry makes life easier [than EOD] for both parties and guarantees you a map out of those that are left. And the short-term weather forecast is probably available before entries close. By the day of the race the pre-printed maps are perishable commodities and shouldn't be sold at a huge premium: a price that equals the late pre-entry price seems appropriate to me.

My club has seen how offering pre-entry reduces the stress on our precious volunteers so is now offering pre-entry to what previously would have been EOD-only C4 / district events. I'd be surprised if the honesty of the orienteering community had declined since 1997 so offering no-fee pre-entries via one of the on-line systems looks like an excellent idea.

[ryeland of doom]

I have long dreaded the incursion of the dreaded pre entry into the lower reaches of the fixture list. For me, rarely knowing if I am fit to run until the weekend in question it will be simply a case of no thanks - off to the hills instead. This will drive me from the sport.
I lose too much money in entries as it is. (and in recent years, you don't even get your map from a missed event ).

I know the fancy maps cost - well why not restrict the premarked offerings to those who know they can run and preenter - I can wield a red pen as well as the next man - do we really need premarked maps at small events? A great luxury, but could we not cut out the luxuries first before compelling us to gamble on getting a run. (And that is before you have the hassle of trying to work out which course to run in advance).

I and I suppose others with a dodgy injury status can cope with a few high profile events in a year, but if it extends to most of the weekend fixtures, the gambling becomes rather onorous.

[Sunlit Forres]

I doubt that any club would want to go to the trouble of setting up on-line entries for a small event. We only do it for those that we think will attract a decent turnout. We hope that most orienteers will pre-enter if they can, simply to make life easier for the organisers. Personally I has a very un-enjoyable experience not that long ago, sitting on registration trying to cope with a long queue of tutting orienteers.

At our next pre-entry event (Darnaway on 13 Feb) we'll be ordering maps based on last year's course loading and the number of pre-entries we get by the closing date. People are welcome to enter on the day (at no extra surcharge) provided that they aren't worried about guaranteeing their choice of course and don't mind queuing in the cold.

[Red Adder]

I've never been a fan of pre-entry - I reckon that if I take out events that involve overnights I miss between 30 % and 50 % of those I've entered and I can't remember when last I received a map after a no-show. This means I'm getting far less inclined to pre-enter and often don't bother on the day - put off by threats of no map and a premium of at least £ 2. ie a loose-loose situation.

My knowledge of costs only really goes as far as A4 maps and I don't think that the surplus of unused maps on a cat C event ever comes above £50 and is often more like £30. We donate them to schools as training aid - hardly a waste there, or let members have a free set.

[Paul Frost]

I reckon that if I take out events that involve overnights I miss between 30 % and 50 % of those I've entered...
My knowledge of costs only really goes as far as A4 maps and I don't think that the surplus of unused maps on a cat C event ever comes above £50...

I guess I must be unusual in that I think I have only missed 2 events in the last 8 years that I had pre-entered.
I don't think £50 on wasted maps is an acceptable situation.

Most of the opponents of pre-entry seem to focus on not being able to predict fitness/availability in advance. For local/smaller events I would only be looking for about 1 or 2 days advance notice. Even when I organised a Regional event I only closed guaranteed entries 7 days before, but continued to accept online up to the night before based on map availability. I don't consider these time scales particular onerous.

[SeanC]

The argument also depends on the event mix in your area. Perhaps only 10% of the events round my way are district events and above. Because of the rapid growth of local events any losses from pre-entry are insignificant, and more than offset by the transport cost savings because we can now stay local if we choose.

Incidently our pre-entry event at Chelwood is a level C, not sure if that makes it a district or a regional, but it will be district event prices (no resurvey, but still a great area). Also I got the date wrong (its 6th Feb) and there will be a discounted entry to the Ashdown Forest Llama Park where we are parking. Perhaps it's not a natural cross sell for Orienteers, or am I sticking my neck out here?