Masters UK Cup - a proposal

[AlanB]

Just catching up after a few days offline ...

Is the proposed Masters UK Cup intended for the 'elite'?

.. and this hasn't been agreed yet. Personally, I would rather it be inclusive but others might see that as 'dumbed down'.


Ranald

Thanks for the response. The reason for asking is that I am an 'improving' 50-something, relatively new to taking my performances seriously (now the kids have grown up and make their own entertainment!). I enthusiastically travel the length and breadth of Scotland taking part in regional events (SOLS, SOA championships) and others such as SoSOLs and club colour-coded, etc.

I enjoy the sport, in the first instance, for the intrinsic pleasures it brings - running through varied, interesting and beautiful environments, enjoying the sensations that physical effort brings in its wake, and meeting people of a like mind. Although my performance level is towards the lower end of my age class, however, I am also highly competitive (as probably most people are even at this level) and I put a reasonable amount of effort into improving.

When the results come out I have a quick look at the position I finished, but, apart from avoiding last place what is much more important to me is my time relative to others in my race. That is why I find the ranking system, and the scoring systems at the SOLs, SoSOLs, Lakes 5, etc particularly useful.

Having a position based scoring system is less attractive for the lower-end competitor. In my younger days I was a member of an athletics club, enjoying cross-country, road and fell races. Again, more enthusiasm than ability, but there were plenty of us about who enjoyed the competitiveness at that level - and it was fierce! The club championship had a position based scoring system, like the one proposed here. What was fine for the people in a position to compete to win the thing wasn't that appropriate lower down. 1st, 2nd or 3rd really means something but what if, say, you are about 50th in a group of 60 and only 30 turn up for one event - having a 'stinker' and finishing last (ie 30th) will give you more points than that fantastic performance that had you finishing 40th in a stronger field.

So, I don't see the existence of a Masters' UK Cup encouraging me to travel the length and breadth of the UK, other than the attraction of the events themselves (and I can use the existing ranking system to judge my performance).

Having said all that (and apologies for rambling on) there is definitely a need to satisfy the needs of the 'elite' at all age levels, and if the current fixture lists do not satisfy that demand then, definitely, go ahead. There are plenty of 'inclusive' fixtures out there with scoring systems that cater for all abilities (as, I assume the fixtures chosen would continue to be).

[frog]

I don't see the need for this. Why do over 35s need their own competition? I don't like junior only competitions because I have to take my son and I can't have a run.
One of the advantages of orienteering is that most family members who want to can have a go.
If you're going to put on all those courses then why not let the younger folk (at least those of TD5 and above) have a go too.
I can see the advantage of being able to use an area that is difficult for TD1,2 etc, but otherwise I don't see the point.
(But then I'm not likely to win any trophies, even nazi ones)
I thought the BOF ranking system allowed you to see who was the best in a particular age group.
Can't we just look at who is top of each age category on 31 Dec and call them the "master" (or mistress!) of that age class.
BOF could even send them a certificate.

[Scott]

frog - I think you misunderstand. The proposal is for a competition based on results from existing events - not to put on special events aimed at over-35s only. Almost all of the events proposed for inclusion (with a couple of exceptions, such as the British Nights) are going to be junior-friendly as well.

[frog]

If no special events then it sounds very similar to the BOF rankings scheme, and as people put time into getting results on that it seems daft not to use that.
In general the better runners in an age category are near the top.
OK if you only select a handful of events from the list there would be a slight change, but perhaps we should be encouraging orienteers to go to lots of local regional events to get ranking points and compete for masters titles rather than travelling further to a few specially chosen events.
I thought the bigger events had a higher weighting on the rankings list anyway.

[DJM]

I thought the bigger events had a higher weighting on the rankings list anyway.

No - all ranked events carry the same weighting.

[Karen]

Perhaps it is time to return to the idea of weighting the ranking points for level A events??

[awk]

If no special events then it sounds very similar to the BOF rankings scheme, and as people put time into getting results on that it seems daft not to use that.
In general the better runners in an age category are near the top.
OK if you only select a handful of events from the list there would be a slight change, but perhaps we should be encouraging orienteers to go to lots of local regional events to get ranking points and compete for masters titles rather than travelling further to a few specially chosen events.

Except that the Masters Cup is partly about head to head racing - very different to the way the ranking list works, where it's trying to rank people alongside other people often competing in different races completely. Some of us rate the former significantly above the latter. The fact that it's planned to be position based is also significantly different to the rankings scheme,which to me is not much more than a statistical exercise. All in all, the Masters Cup looks a lot more interesting.

[LostAgain]

[quote="awk]
Except that the Masters Cup is partly about head to head racing - very different to the way the ranking list works, where it's trying to rank people alongside other people often competing in different races completely. [/quote]

I agree, and it is not as if they are mutually exclusive.

[JK]

The format sounds reasonable, although I think 1 middle distance isn't enough.

I'd vote for the former option of all Vets age classes being included (at least until M75 ... or so ... depending on how many are involved).

If this is the UK Masters Cup then it should be about quality events and inclusive so would mostly comprise events that people would be going to anyway. A subset of these events should be used for the various VHI teams [note to self: I need to find some more Manx competitors for an IoM vets team some day].

I'd prefer to see a better balance in the types of event included, but then again the suggestions were typical of the British O scene which IMO does not include enough Middle Distance races (JK would be an obvious choice!).

So, ALL British champs (sprint, middle, long, night) should be included along with all JK and some of the annual [Lakes/Scottish/Welsh]-day summer event.

Personally I'd suggest something along the lines of 6 events to count, including at least 2 Long and 2 others (Sprint/Middle/Night/Urban-Long) or 3 and 3 out of 8 or something like that. You want variety, but not too much - there should be a bit more emphasis on traditional long courses.

JK

PS although a fan of having more Middle Distance it is the format I am most useless at, I'd be suggesting a British Ultra-Long Champs if I was suggesting something for myself!

[EddieH]

I think that a very good suggestion JK. I would include the JOK chasing sprint (or equivalent) as it is another quality non long race with yet another format.

[RanaldMacdonald]

The BOF website has an announcement today about the UK Masters Cup - apologies for the delay in providing the details but various things conspired against us, not least the weather.

We have decided to keep it as simple as possible, so it's any eight events from the 19 to count. For this year there are 2 Sprint, 3 Urban, 3 Middle, 10 Long and 1 Night. This means that most people will need to do some of the alternative formats to count unless they do a lot of travel to only pick up Long events. We have tried to provide a reasonable geographical spread but it has not been easy so please bear with us as to get a more even distribution would have meant significantly increasing the number of events included in the programme.

EddieH has agreed to co-ordinate the scoring and announcements and we are waiting to see how we can upload these onto the BOF website as soon as possible after each event.

We will review the Masters Cup throughout the year and I am hoping someone from Senior Competitions Group will take responsibility for this.

I hope people enjoy the format and the events - must enter Edinburgh!

Ranald

[Mrs H]

Ooo I'm quite excited already - will there be prizes

[IanD]

[Catfish]

A new challenge, stepping up training as from tomorrow M55's be warned you will need to be super fit to win this group!!!

[Gnitworp]

It might increase participation in the British Nights, which wouldn't be bad. You'd be silly to eschew a guaranteed high score.