M/W20s

[Scott]

Slightly scary statistic that I have just remembered from the BOF roadshow last week: there are, in total 111 M/W20 BOF members. This represented a big drop from 18s, although I admit I can't remember how big.

That equates to maybe 30 new M21s and 25 new W21s each year coming up from junior orienteering across the whole of the UK, working on the pretty big assumption that all of the top year 20s are actually active orienteers (rather than just being listed on family memberships even though they haven't orienteered for ages).

To put it another way, those who are dedicated enough to reach the FCC Final as 20s represent over a quarter of the orienteering population in their age-group.

To me, 50ish seniors per year seems like a relatively small return on the huge amount of effort that is put into junior orienteering. I don't dispute that junior orienteering is inherently a good thing, or that it has other substantial benefits (eg. bringing parents into the sport), but at the same time it would definitely be nice if it fed more directly into adult participation.

So, does the drop off after 18 matter, and if so what should we be doing about it? Would it be worth putting extra effort in to keep more juniors in the sport, or is it a waste of time? More support (of some sort) for student clubs is one obvious way to try to work on this, but there is only so much that that can achieve, and it doesn't really do much for those who don't go to university. Any other ideas?

Credit here to Mrs H, who has been going on about the marginalisation of 20s for ages.

[greywolf]

The rankings list (although it's playing up today) seems to record 100 M/W20s (55 M20, 45 W20) with at least 1 ranking score (i.e. they have completed a course which at least 9 other BOF members completed at a reasonably serious event in the last 12 months) so at least c. 50 in each year are actually orienteering, which fits with your figure Scott.

The worrying thing is that although this compares unfavourably with 172 M/W18s (104 M, 68 W), it's actually more per year than M/W21 (total of 583 ranked runners/14 = c. 42 per year),

When the ranking list is sorted it will be possible to use the Year of Birth info to see the profile within the M/W21 group

[Mrs H]

I was just about to wade in there Scott until i read the small print.

Perhaps this is another instance where the H Principle of "First Do No Harm" should be applied.

Don't drop all the tours
Don't drop the University Development Officer
Dont drop them from the YBT
Don't drop the JWOC selection from the FCC final

A few more indirect factors that could be relevant include the gist of BaBa's somewhat misdirected rant about the cost of students' own training programmes.

The unfortunate lack of a senior team at next year's World Schools (the rot will set in earlier for that echelon).

And the perennial hard core tutting which accompanies any recreational 20/21 who doesn't do L or E courses and prefers to enjoy themselves on something a bit shorter which doesn't require them training their balls off a la

Maybe Dan should run "L" next time? - he could still relax a bit before the run-in to get the fastest time.

Why for God's sake?

Oh and here's another thought

Perhaps some parents and cracking the whip a bit too hard at home and the kids are simply relieved to pull back from the sport at the earliest opportunity. Not to mention the surprisingly common old boy attitude of "let's keep the youngsters in their place" which I'm shocked to say I've witnessed on several occasions at first hand

[graeme]

So, does the drop off after 18 matter, and if so what should we be doing about it?

Will students take up new hobbies at University?
cacatne ursus in silvis?

Drop out after 18 is inevitable. We need to become the hobby students drop into.
There's a big conflict of interest for most BOF members here: most of us parents want our kids to stay in the sport, and won't in practice support anything which emphasizes recruitment over retention.

[Scott]

Indeed, there is always going to be a significant amount of drop-out when kids go off to university. But if their university of choice has an active, friendly orienteering club, the recreational 18-year-old is probably a bit more likely to stay in the sport, and it's that same active, friendly student club which is going to appeal to the non-orienteer looking for a new hobby to try.

Of course, this isn't just about university orienteering - after all, the majority of young people aren't going to go to university...

[SeanC]

My wife tells me that a drop in participation in the early 20's is a well known feature of most sports. Traditional Orienteering early on weekend mornings in rural locations where many younger adults don't live, or can't get to, or don't want to get to, almost certainly exaggerates this effect.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do our best to retain as many as possible in this age (eg more town/city Orienteering), but we should also aim to re-recruit those in this age group that will drop out until Orienteering fits better with lifestyle/location so I guess that means:

- much more publicity at national/regional/club level

- But also we could change our ideas about membership. If people didn't have to renew membership every year, or even join a club, and instead we used a registration model similar to that used by Geocaching.com and ParkRun, then we could (if the orienteer allowed us) continue to send occasional reminder emails to people for as long as their email address lives. More of them might then return when circumstances change.

[Gross]

(eg more town/city Orienteering),

And kill off orienteering..... nothing wrong with all this urban stuff but it's not the answer to everything as some posters seem to think!

[awk]

And kill off orienteering..... nothing wrong with all this urban stuff but it's not the answer to everything as some posters seem to think!

I'm not sure quite why more town/city orienteering will kill off orienteering. If you mean traditional, bog standard length course orienteering, on bog standard areas, then perhaps it will impact, but we've certainly found that the variety of sprints, middle distance (nowhere near enough on the calendar), Long-Os, and urban races has restored our interest in the sport big time. The quickest way to kill the sport off is to persist with a model that had already seen a massive decline in participation across all ages under 55 long before urban racing took off.

[Gnitworp]

Yes, at last we've learnt that orienteering is finding your way from point to point as quickly as possible literally anywhere, ideally (or in the ultimate, necessarily) using a perfect map.

[mallory]

I recently asked a sporty male friend of my daughter's (W18) why he wasn't attracted to trying orienteering. 'It is not commercial enough' was his reply. Seems that young people prefer to be involved in high profile sports that may have media coverage. My suggestion is that as a start BOF contact the Chris Evans show on Radio 2 and invite Chris and Jonny to take part in orienteering as part of their weekly sporting challenges - videos on-line at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2. Then we need a Sky Channel to cover a big event: e.g. British Champs or a 'spectactle' event such as the London City Race. A programme like the 'ONE Show' may be interested. This may then entice young people to have a go.

I also think that current M/W 18s and 20s can also promote their sport to their friends in and out of university.

[graeme]

The quickest way to kill the sport off is to persist with a model that had already seen a massive decline in participation across all ages under 55 long before urban racing took off.

I agree we must not persist with this model.
But it isn't the quickest way to kill the sport. The invidious aspect of this model is how is caters exclusively for those already in the sport. It is killing the sport slowly, as everyone ages and aren't replaced at the M/W20 level. Slowly enough that many people don't notice, and others will be too old to take part before it goes, so have no incentiive to care.

[andypat]

I recently asked a sporty male friend of my daughter's (W18) why he wasn't attracted to trying orienteering. 'It is not commercial enough' was his reply. Seems that young people prefer to be involved in high profile sports that may have media coverage. My suggestion is that as a start BOF contact the Chris Evans show on Radio 2 and invite Chris and Jonny to take part in orienteering as part of their weekly sporting challenges - videos on-line at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2. Then we need a Sky Channel to cover a big event: e.g. British Champs or a 'spectactle' event such as the London City Race. A programme like the 'ONE Show' may be interested. This may then entice young people to have a go.

I also think that current M/W 18s and 20s can also promote their sport to their friends in and out of university.

These are good ideas, but "contacting" Chris Evans doesnt even come close to what this would entail. You'd need someone to hand-hold the media through the event both before and after and follow up on any leads. This is if not a full time job, then at least a job for someone and with BOF having to cut back on resources I'd not hold my breath that theres the manpower to take it forward.

[mharky]

Don't drop the University Development Officer

Wasn't he fired for doing F-all work?

How many juniors chose to do orienteering? Don't most just do it because their family or school does? Is it really a surprise that when they leave home or school they stop orienteering?

I bet if you took a load of A-level students to the o-ringen they'd love it. UK orienteering is just tragic. Events look like the bi-monthly field-trip for a care home. Urban racing is probably the way forward for young people. But proper marketing needs to be done. SLOW seem to be onto a winning formula.

p.s. If you brought any form of media to a British event today then it would do our public image more damage than good. Unless it's the PWT of course...

[Copepod]

Interesting point about coverage of some orienteering being worse than nothing. Not sure whether there will be any orienteering featured on C4 programme about Tees Rat Race to be shown Sun 24th Oct, 7am (or 8am on C4+1)- although Rat Races (Edinburgh / Bristol / London) usually involve orienteering stages, I can't remember seeing orienteering on any subsequent TV coverage.

[Spookster]

Unless it's the PWT of course...

... or an IOF sanctioned event like the World Champs at which you would be obliged to deliver the requirements of the Leibnitz Convention.