Compass Sport Cup

[Gnitworp]

Not that I recommending it as standard practice, but I remember Chris Brasher, Forest Coordinator for the 1976 WOC, eulogising in an article in 'The Orienteer' about advice given by the IOF Technical Advisor, Sivar Nordstrom:

He told us about 'Course Planning Principle 3', which was governed by 'Sivar's Shoulders' as a yardstick for fair control marker hanging, where the presence of another competitor at a control was thereby rendered immaterial.

A wonderful principle, but I suspect one would now be considered a little extreme in its rigid application!

I've been know to push stakes in at a 45 degree angle (Sivar lying down?)

[ianandmonika]

I should have said that although I had several helpers, Ian and I either placed the stakes or hung the flags at all bar 8 of the control sites, so the control hanging sits with us. I think we will disagree on this one. No more comments from me on this event, Monika

[70plus]

Graeme hits the nail on the head. Orienteering should not be about hide-and-seek. If a control takes too long to find by standard methods, at a busy competition the circle fills with searchers until the control is found. A queue or a squabble for the punch(es) ensues, after which real orienteering is resumed. This is commonly called Bingo, and is worst on open areas. Control hanging is more important than some planners think.

[GML]

Ian and Monika

Firstly can I say thank you to you and all of you team for putting on the event on Sunday. As a planner myself, I appreciate the amount of time and effort that goes into planning an event like Sundays, in particular on an area as challenging as Burbage. Thank you for making it possible for the rest of us to compete.

I appreciate that you may not wish to respond to the following question (or even be reading this any more) but what I would like to better understand is how we might improve the Rules and/or Guidelines so that it is clearer to everyone what they can expect by way of course lengths at future CSC Qualifiers and Finals. You said:

Regarding course lengths, I used Event Rules M CompassSport Cup and Event Guideline B for Colour Coded courses. These are not totally consistent in terms of the overlap of course colours and age classes, so I used a compromise between the 2, also talking account of veterans’ general comments that they did not want short courses.

From this I deduce that you thought it appropriate to plan courses that were somewhere between the course length specified in the Guidelines for the colour of each course, and the course length specified in the Guidelines for the ages of the competitors competing on that course. So for example, the CSC Rules say that you should plan a Blue course that will be run by M45 to M55 competitors, but the Guidelines say that M45 and M50 competitors run Short Brown. You therefore planned a course that was somewhere between Blue and Short Brown in length? Is this correct?

If so, I think it needs to be made clearer in the CSC Rules (now Competition Rules J) whether what is expected is what I hypothesise you did, or whether something else is expected, such as the courses being planned according to the Guidelines for the colour of the course, irrespective of the ages of the competitors that will be running that course. I personally am less concerned about which of these it should be, as with ensuring that the Rules are clear so that everyone knows in advance what to expect.

[distracted]

Also in Appendix B, and a principle I find good to use:

For fairness, the visibility of a control should be the same whether or not there is a
competitor at the control site.

[AndyC]

Careful with that "invisible" is still "invisible" with an orienteer in front of the control!

I remember an Army event (run by students) where I spoke to the planner about "hiding controls" -below the heather level, behind a wide tree on the direction of approach and behind the only (unmapped) thicket on a spur -where had there been more runners we'd have been locating via each other not the map.

To the Burbage planners -I wasn't there so I can't comment on actual placement but 1) you stepped up and took the task on 2) some people always complain 3) That which does not destroy us makes us stronger --More power to your elbows

[ianandmonika]

Re GML, willing to communicate with Rules/Guidelines Committee but not continue through a public forum. GML = ?? Confusing all these anonymous comments - come out of hiding, as we have been willing to do.

[andy]

Confusing all these anonymous comments - come out of hiding, as we have been willing to do.

does it really matter who they are? does it change the way you interpret their comments?

[Scott]

Anonymity is a vitally important part of Nopesport. It wouldn't be half as fun without people who think they are anonymous continuing to makes fools of themselves long after everyone else knows who they are

I should add that this is not in reference to anything on this thread.

[graeme]

Graham Louth

[Spookster]

Re GML, willing to communicate with Rules/Guidelines Committee but not continue through a public forum. GML = ?? Confusing all these anonymous comments - come out of hiding, as we have been willing to do.

Monika - only 2 Graham L's ran at Burbage...

[Mrs H]

Re GML,come out of hiding.

I really don't think Graham is in hiding Monika as we all knew who it was. He has obviously picked up an interesting point in your comments and done it most respectfully and politely.

As I said before I thoroughly enjoyed my outing but I was definitely out longer than I would have expected on a green course - which is what I would usually run at colour coded. Is this perhaps because of the compromise between the colour and age class you mention? W45s and W50s would normally run a short blue as their long course I think only us W55s run green (along with W60s who for the purposes of the CSC are put on short green).

Why don't the CSC courses and the age class courses match then the green would not need to be massaged towards the short blue in a vaguely turquoise manner

[Scott]

Why don't the CSC courses and the age class courses match

To cater for competitors who may not normally run their "Long" age class but who still want to (or are needed to) represent their club? In which case I guess it comes back to where you think the balance between inclusivity and determining the best club should lie for the CSC.

[GML]

Re GML, willing to communicate with Rules/Guidelines Committee but not continue through a public forum. GML = ?? Confusing all these anonymous comments - come out of hiding, as we have been willing to do.

I wasn't intentionally hiding, GML = Graham Louth

[Blonde bombshell]

Scott - 'In which case I guess it comes back to where you think the balance between inclusivity and determining the best club should lie for the CSC.'

Which brings me back to my first comment. Having trawled through the results I have come up with the following breakdown of entries for the cup:-

Total SYO BOK OD DEE AIRE HOC
Brown 126 18 10 8 7 14 11
Blue W 84 15 4 6 4 9 5
Blue M 171 13 12 11 16 16 15
(senior) 46 26 25 27 39 31

Green W 95 9 6 6 10 7 10
Green M 101 7 5 10 11 9 12
S Green 69 5 9 10 8 3 4
(vets?) 21 20 26 29 19 26

LG M 37 5 2 3 4 6 3
LG W 30 1 3 4 2 4 1
O M 38 5 2 4 2 2 1
O W 30 3 1 6 4 2 0
(junior) 14 8 17 12 14 5

Total 81 54 68 68 72 62
Ratio S/J 6;1 7;1 4;1 5.5;1 6;1 12.5;1

Obviously SYO were able to send a bigger team because of home ground (& lost some through running the event). Am I the only one who is dismayed by the low number of juniors? Is this because of the scoring of CSC? Is it because clubs with high numbers of juniors have difficulty qualifying? Is it a true reflection of the age range in orienteering?

Clubs with large numbers of brown & blue men get a double advantage - scoring 100,99 98etc, and 6 to count. Why?
The YBT is for juniors only, but the CSC is a whole club competition and not just for seniors. Does it really produce the 'best' club as the winner?