Masters UK Cup - a proposal

[Sunlit Forres]

I personally prefer the vets, super vets and grand vets concept. There are enough major events where M45s etc can compete against other M45s etc. I prefer to have a bigger field and hence a more meaningful competition.

Option 2 doesn't seem feasible due to the 5-year age classes being on differnt courses at so many of the proposed long events (certainly BOC, JK and S6D).

I agree that this would be a problem for events like BOC and JK and S6D, so perhaps exclude those events; they are major attractions in themselves and don't require enticements to increase attendance. As an M50 I wouldn't object to being told what course to run to qualify for the UK Masters, so long as the length wasn't too extreme. One suggestion could be to make it compulsory to have one counting event in all disciplines (urban, sprint, middle and long.... not so sure about night though) with the rest coming from any category of race.

That said, if someone's prepared to organise it, I'd be happy to go with whatever system they wanted!

[LesS]

Are we all suddenly coming out the woodwork? I, too, followed the previous Master's Cup because it was based on the National Level events so, in theory, the top people in all the age groups, long and short, would be most likely to attend giving a far better indicator of all-round performance than a one-off championship race on terrain or in conditions that would always suit some but not others. The only problem (apart from the lack of publicity) was the arbitrary nature of the odd, unadvertised, Badge/Regional event suddenly appearing in the listings when you had attended one in your own area rather than the scoring one somewhere else.

Also, as a short course participant - no longer a competitor even at short - I have lost all interest in the ranking list as I can no longer tell who I am competing against - I used to be able to travel all round the UK knowing the people in my class and how I should be doing against them. I don't think I've ever spoken to Ranald, but I've been racing him and many others who I don't know as individuals for many years - decades in some cases.

If we don't use the 5-year age groups we all love so much, I see large amounts of extra work for organisers (and planners) - I see problems with relevant courses as with CompassSport Cup groupings where people are forced to run courses/distances that they have no wish to do. And if we are talking of around 15 qualifying events, I feel that all the arguments about levels are going to start up again!!!!

As far as the types of event to be included are concerned, Sunlit Forres hits the nail on the head as to compulsion to have a score from different types of event. Not too keen on night events, neither am I, I don't do them. But I don't do Urban either - I won't run on tarmac or concrete any more, neither will many other people. Sorry but I'm not going to travel any sort of distance to do a 15 minute Sprint. So that's me out - that's a lot of people out, so it's no longer inclusive.

So where does that leave us? How about the 6 to 8 National Events, spread over the year (unlike this year!) that people should be willing to travel to, Long and Short with the standard Ranking Points. Ah you mean the Master's Cup !!

[awk]

As a regular short course competitor, I really can't see how one can include S classes.

The S class is defined as two-thirds L at 'standard' or 'long' distance events - it is a special category for these events, and these events alone, for those who don't want to run longer distances. There is no S at Middle and Sprint, and to my mind, these wouldn't make any sense. Indeed an M50 Middle distance race IS effectively the S class, at least in distance if not in style, just that there is no L class at these events!

But I do agree with Lost Again, that there should be sufficient races so that those who enjoy shorter distances can compete in the Masters Series/Cup. On the other hand, I'd also like to see something with some real length, for instance the Tim Watkins Trophy.

[EddieH]

Sunlit Forres I think you are confusing the issue with competition. There is no requirement for any included event to keep classes seperate (other than any rules that that competition might be under (e.g. BOC)).

There is no reason why everyone shouldn't be on the same course as with my proposed JOK chasing sprint. Class results are simply taken from eligible people for the event.

However using broad classes will never work with the long distance championships or JK.

Regarding excluding these major events - well that's likely to kill the whole thing dead (or kill off these events) - who'd opt to travel to as whole set of new events in addition to the current major events?

[batty]

A great idea and I would like a mixture of race types. Having seen the proposed programme i think a greater spread of areas is needed and maybe not all days of the JK counting. Also just a query but it states the British Long Championships are in Eskdale on May 5th. On the BOF fixtures it is in YHOA on the 14th.

[Roger]

Speaking from experience of the Nopesport Urban League, if you're using a system where placings define the points then it's best if all the events have broadly similar numbers of competitors. Otherwise the poorly-attended events become bonanzas whereas even a good run at a popular event may not get into your scoring set.

Of course, if the aim of the competition is to boost participation rather than to find champions then the presence of potential bonanzas may help.

[Spookster]

Also just a query but it states the British Long Championships are in Eskdale on May 5th. On the BOF fixtures it is in YHOA on the 14th.

Not sure where you've seen anything about Eskdale on May 5th, but the British Long Champs are definitely near Sheffield on May 14th 2011.

[RJ]

BOC is planned for Eskdale for May 2012.... five O-ring year!!

[geomorph]

In summary there are 2 sprint, 1 middle, 9 long, 1 long urban and 1 night.

If the desire is to make it more inclusive of the "Short" runners then you could either nominate a couple of events where the "Short" course is the deisgnated counter or include more Middle Distance events at the expense of the Long.

Something like:
2 sprint, 4 middle, 6 long, 1 long urban and 1 night
or
2 sprint, 1 middle, 6 long, 3 Short, 1 long urban and 1 night

Should do it.

I'd prefer the Middle Distance option as this avoids a clash of "L" vs "S" at an event.

Support principle of the first option ie middle not short.

With 8 from 15 being the qualification:
Wonder if it is possible to split the five formats evenly: 3s,3m,3l,3u,3n
A 'master' must have at least one from each format and no more than 3 in a single format to contribute to the qualifying 8.

What about having 'kings' (like in cycling, but don't have to use that term). Those who are top of the age breakdown for a specific format eg 'M45 king of sprint', that is they will need to have competed in all 3. Would this broaden appeal and hence particiption?

Guess if want to create 'kings' then it probably needs more eligible races per format. As getting 3 top notch nights may stretch it and more may be untenable, then could end up with total participating races per format: 4s, 4m, 5l, 4u, 3n. Night kings may have to be awarded on basis of 2 only.

[andypat]

Ha! King of the Night - sounds a bit Dungeons and Dragons - but i'm up for it! If you take the analogy to cycling a bit further you could have a King of the Mountains. Each event nominates one (or more) legs on each course which has the most climb. Points awarded for position on that leg go towards overall prize - which must surely be a red polka dot O suit

[EddieH]

I do hope that Geomorph was in similar jest to Andypat - or does Geomprph want to organise the whole thing including buying prizes and arranging 6 X the number of age classes of prizegivings

[graeme]

What about having 'kings'

Following that article by Andy Hemsted on how to conquer Scotland, how about "King of Scotland"? Now there's a challenge for you foreigners.

[Steve]

The proposal is that we try to create a UK Cup for veterans. The principles of the UK Cup are:
• Encourage greater quality competition.
<snip>
Classes
Option 2 Vets, (40, 45, 50) Super Vets (55, 60, 65) Grand Vets (70+).

If the Masters Cup was akin to the UK Cup, where an elite group competes separately(i.e. M/W21E vs M/W21L), then an elite Vets courses could be run with a numbers limit of say 60, with places awarded according to current Masters Cup standings and after that on current ranking list standings with an even split between each of the 3 classes, or something like that. I.e. an Elite Vets course for 40/45/50, etc.

If removing 20 top runners from each class decimates the field then combine and have 2 courses for each group - elite and non-elite. E.g. Masters Cup Vets (40/45/50), and Vets (40/45/50). The non-elite course could be shorter than the elite course. This system could not be super-imposed on the existing course structure, but could provide a better framework for elite veteran competition than a super-imposed scoring system that most people are unaware of.

[HOCOLITE]

As a short course runner who does the occassional night event and enjoys urban O.I'd go for a mix of events. Mind you I'm not sure I think of myself as a Vet yet Surely Vets are old fogeys

[RanaldMacdonald]

Just catching up after a few days offline ...

Has anyone volunteered to co-ordinate this series/cup? Ranald? These things seem to work best when the co-ordinator has a large say in how the competition will run.

A good point, Neil, as evidenced by Peter G's role in the CSC.

I would be happy to keep the scores and get the information out to folks.

Now that sounds like an offer we can't refuse, Eddie!

Is the proposed Masters UK Cup intended for the 'elite'?

.. and this hasn't been agreed yet. Personally, I would rather it be inclusive but others might see that as 'dumbed down'.

As a regular short course competitor, I really can't see how one can include S classes.
...

But I do agree with Lost Again, that there should be sufficient races so that those who enjoy shorter distances can compete in the Masters Series/Cup. On the other hand, I'd also like to see something with some real length, for instance the Tim Watkins Trophy.

Absolutely!

To summarise, I see the Masters UK Cup (or perhaps it is a 'series') as being more inclusive, involving a greater variety of disciplines, particularly urban and midlle if there are enough major events in the fixtures list, and wide geographical distribution to enable greater participation across the country.

As a short course runner who does the occassional night event and enjoys urban O.I'd go for a mix of events.

Perhaps the most important thing is that the best orienteers come out on top but that others can set themselves targets to move up the tables or set mini competitions with their peers as already happens.

It's also important that we keep the scoring simple and transparent ...

Anyway, thanks for all the positive comments and suggestions which I can take back to SCG - though other contributions are still welcomed.

Ranald