Masters UK Cup - a proposal

[RanaldMacdonald]

At the meeting of Senior Competitions Group (SCG) in July Dave Peel, BOF Events Manager, suggested we look at putting on a Masters UK Cup. A paper has been circulated to SCG representatives for consideration by associations. To summarise:

The proposal is that we try to create a UK Cup for veterans. The principles of the UK Cup are:
• Encourage greater quality competition.
• Simple position based scoring system (as alternative to rankings).
• Encourage participation in more events.
• Provide as much variety in terrain type and geographical locations as possible
• Promote alternative competition formats.
• A competition that is recognised and respected.

Classes
Option 1: M/W (L only): 35,40,45,50,55,60,65,70,75,80,85
An alternative to the above is a combined 75+ class (they run the same course).
Pros: * Simple (classes at events with wider age classes such as urban events would need to have individual class scores calculated from the overall class results i.e. Vet men: strip out M40, 45, 50).
Cons: * More classes less class.
* No Short classes.

Option 2 Vets, (40, 45, 50) Super Vets (55, 60, 65) Grand Vets (70+).
This is the Urban League class structure
Pros: * Promotes wider and diverse competition.
* Sets itself apart from other competitions.
Cons: * Fewer winners.
* Complex (With individual events having varying course/class combinations it would be a more complex system. Scoring would need to be based on course results and it may not be possible to include all runners with in a category if the 5-year classes are not competing on the same course).

Overall scores could be the 8 best from 14/15 events. The suggested programme is based on the championships, areas championships and key major events throughout a 10 month season. For 2011 it would include the London City Race, British Night Championships, three days of the JK and two of the Scottish 6 Day. In summary there are 2 sprint, 1 middle, 9 long, 1 long urban and 1 night.

The Questions we have asked associations to consider include:

• Is the number of events right?
• Is there a suitable balance of disciplines?
• Is there a need for different formats (mass start, score etc)?
• Should the programme be driven by other criteria? e.g. geographic distribution, terrain types.

What are the thoughts on Nopesport? And please encourage associations to discuss it. I would like comments by 30 October so that we can take the proposal and responses to Events Committee on 6 November.

Ranald Macdonald
Chair, Senior Competitions Group

[Mrs H]

I think it sounds great! I'd go for the first option 5 year age groups and as long as there are enough single day long courses to make up the required number (as opposed to multi-days and along with the other disciplines) I'd really like to give it a go.

[madmike]

Ranald,
I used to follow the Masters Cup on the old ranking pages and regretted it's passing (like separate short course rankings ). As a confirmed short course runner I am certainly not interested in anything that's long course only - I already know Homer, Spookster et al are much better than me . If you want to bring back the Master's Cup then try and broaden its appeal, market it aggressively as I suspect the last one died as only a handful of us paid it any attention. If it isn't relevant to a broad church you are probably wasting your time.
Mike

[RanaldMacdonald]

As a confirmed short course runner I am certainly not interested in anything that's long course only - I already know Homer, Spookster et al are much better than me . If you want to bring back the Master's Cup then try and broaden its appeal, market it aggressively as I suspect the last one died as only a handful of us paid it any attention. If it isn't relevant to a broad church you are probably wasting your time.

I agree completely, Mike, as a fellow short course runner, but I've been a lone voice on SCG to date. One solution might be to increase the number of short, middle and urban events in the mix, though I would still like to find a way of including Short course runners at other major events. I discussed it with Dave Peel yesterday and it is problematic if it is to be a genuine competition and not get too complicated to score.

The previous Masters Cup was based on the rankings but the intention is to base it on a scoring system which is perhaps more transparent and easier to calculate.

Suggestions gratefully received ...

Ranald

[Gnitworp]

How about trying to get sponsorship and having prizes and/or trophies. The BOF Rankings were sponsored for many years contributing much to their prestige, especially when there was a nice wine hamper from Peter Dominic for winning an age class. A 'Cup'' without a cup or similar seems slightly odd.

[Mrs H]

Oh God no trophies please! The one i picked up at the West Mids relays on sunday looks like something left over from a Hitler Youth Rally All doric columns and young women with unfeasibly pointy bosoms

Prizes by all means especially nice wine hampers!

[Spookster]

Option 2 doesn't seem feasible due to the 5-year age classes being on differnt courses at so many of the proposed long events (certainly BOC, JK and S6D). But Option 1 sounds good.

No need for trophies. If "Masters Cup" as a title means there needs to be a cup, then just call it "Masters Series".

[NeilC]

Has anyone volunteered to co-ordinate this series/cup? Ranald? These things seem to work best when the co-ordinator has a large say in how the competition will run.

[Homer]

This is long overdue and I welcome it.

If it's actually going to happen, as NeilC points out, it needs an enthusiastic person to keep scores updated (as Roger does so well for the Nopesport league).

I like the balance of races which Ranald proposes and agree with Spookster that it can only work where all those in the same league class run the same course at each league race. Trying in include short classes will inevitably prove problematic and make scoring more complicated.

I like the idea of keeping the scoring system the same as the Nopesport league. Simple to understand and easy to see what you need to do to move up the table.

[LostAgain]

In summary there are 2 sprint, 1 middle, 9 long, 1 long urban and 1 night.

If the desire is to make it more inclusive of the "Short" runners then you could either nominate a couple of events where the "Short" course is the deisgnated counter or include more Middle Distance events at the expense of the Long.

Something like:
2 sprint, 4 middle, 6 long, 1 long urban and 1 night
or
2 sprint, 1 middle, 6 long, 3 Short, 1 long urban and 1 night

Should do it.

I'd prefer the Middle Distance option as this avoids a clash of "L" vs "S" at an event.

[EddieH]

Definitely a good concept.

I think you need to look at why the old system was such a failure, and I would say in two words it was publicity and status. It was well announced that it was going to happen and then secretly scored obscurely on BOF's website. I NEVER EVER saw any further mention of it (other than when I brought the subject up) in all the years it ran.

Like others I cannot see otion B being remotely feasable.

I would suggest that there is a need for more shorter formats. There are a number of quality middle distance races from which a choice sould be made. And where is the JOK chasing sprint - surely a perfect type of race for this?

I doubt that I would bother with the competition for geographic reasons unless I don't have to go to too many races. I would be happy to keep the scores and get the information out to folks.

[madmike]

Trying in include short classes will inevitably prove problematic and make scoring more complicated.

Why?

[distracted]

The format of the competition is surely going to be driven by what it is trying to achieve.

If the aim is like that of the UK Cup, then I would assume it is aimed primarily at the top end of the results list, and if people want to run those courses to try and get points then they can. For some of us 21s to get into the scoring is an achievement as we don't stand a chance of 'competing' and are often running longer courses than usual. If this is how it would run, are there the numbers in each 5-year age class to make it a challenge to score points, or would the scoring have to be more restricted?

Alternatively, if there's the intention of it being more 'inclusive' and encouraging participation across all ages and long/short course runners, then that would suggest the format could be quite different to the current UK Cup. I've no immediate suggestions on format to make this work.

[AlanB]

Is the proposed Masters UK Cup intended for the 'elite'?

[Gnitworp]

Only the top 10 were ever shown in the previous 'lists' that eluded EddieH for so long.