Compass Sport Cup

[Blonde bombshell]

The CSC competition is a really good club event, but what is it trying to highlight?
I would expect the main club competition to 'reward' the 'best' club.

What is the 'best' club?
My definition is the club with a wide range of members - juniors, seniors, veterans, male & female. A club where club spirit is strong. Where effort is made to introduce beginners (both juniors and seniors).

Does the CSC achieve this?
I'm not so sure. The present scoring system is weighted towards M 21-60 both with scores (100,99,98 etc) and the number allowed to count towards the final total (max of 6 on brown & blue course).
Juniors (and particularly girls) almost seem an after thought (scores - 100, 96, 92 etc) with only a max of 4 to count from the same course(LG & O) who could be all boys (or all girls, but not likely).

So clubs with a strong junior section or who introduce M/W21+ (who would struggle as newcomers on a brown or blue course) don't get the recognition I think they deserve.

There are exceptions. A quick look at this years qualifications show OD, SO & SN (did they qualify for the final?) as having a good spread of counters. However, most depend on the two classes (brown & blue).

Is this really what the competition is for? If we want to know which club has the strongest M21-60 group surely we only need to look at the results from the relevant classes at the JK and BOC relays.

Why doesn't the CSC use the same scoring (100,99,98,97 etc) for every course, with the same max number of counters?

Any answers or comments would be welcomed.

[andy]

It's just not attractive enough to travel to the final unless you are in with a good chance of winning. esoc have won the Scottish heat in the 'cup' for the last few years, but haven't been able to get a team together worthy of travelling (i.e. not filling all the necessary spots) and despite many efforts by myself and the previous club captain we haven't been able to convince everyone else to go.

If it were a bigger weekend with more event(s) happening, like a national event, or a big relay or something then it would be much more attractive. there doesn't appear to be anything nearby on the Saturday. As it stands we're not going to travel to an event we don't have a full team for, when we can get equally good events within an hour's drive.

How about a British Equivalent of TioMila / Jukola on the Saturday (ok so not a night event, but during the day is fine) and then a national event incorporating the CSC on the Sunday, that would be amazing!

[Blonde bombshell]

Does anyone know where the final has been held over the last 10 years?
Is there any pattern or is it always in the Midlands?
Andy's suggestion sounds good as most people only want to travel distances for large multi events on good terrain.
I think the event should rotate around the country like BOC & JK.

[Tatty]

I've done Finals in East Yorkshire, Shropshire and Lancashire!

[Mrs H]

I thought boys and girls were now separate for scoring purposes - also I think the number of counters in these classes is less because the numbers contesting them are likely to be much smaller - it would of course be possible to manipulate the weighting of the points to favour those with more active juniors by increasing the number of points they score - but as you say - it all depends what you are trying to prove.

I don't think any club is going to do particularly well unless they have a good range of runners across the board and it is an orienteering competition - not a club development competition or anything else - that's what Club of the Year is for

[Blonde bombshell]

I can remember going to Norfolk or Essex (not sure which as I slept most of the way!). I was just wondering if there had been a recent trend to hold the final more centrally.

Re juniors - there are 4 courses (orange men & women, LG men & women) which are allocated scores separately. However, only 4 scores can then be counted from both orange courses combined & LG likewise.

As to weighting - I don't think there should be any. All courses score 100,99,98,97 and each club uses their 25 highest scores regardless of which course they come from.

My objection is that clubs with very few juniors/veterans can do well because of the weighting in the brown & mens blue courses.

[Neil M40]

I think combining CS Cup with a National Event would be a mistake. The CS Cup final is a big event in it's own right. On the Brown course you get 120+ competitors including some of our top international runners - an experience you are not going to get at a National Event. And the club-centric atmosphere of the Cup would be diluted by being subordinated to an individual competition.

Anyway, for what its worth

2010 Burbage Moor, South Yorks
2009 Fineshade, Leicestershire
2008 Sutton Park, West Midlands
2007 Blidworth, Nottingham
2006 Greenham Common, Berkshire
2005 Clowbridge, Lancashire
2004 Pillar Woods, Lincolnshire
2003 Thetford, Norfolk
2002 Titterstone Clee, Shropshire
2001 Not the compass sport cup, Ecclesall Woods, Sheffield
2000 Ilkley Moor, West Yorkshire
1999 Burghfield Common, Berkshire
1998 Slaley, Hexham, Northumberland
1997 Great Wood, Keswick, Cumbria
1996
1995
1994
1993
1992 Allean, Perthshire
1991 High Pike, Cumbria

I've been to 7 of them, I think.

[PG]

The scoring is designed to reflect the age distribution that actually exists within clubs, not to try to skew the results to encourage newcomers or reward clubs that have been particularly successful in encouraging any particular age group.

Up till this year the scoring was 100,99,98,97, etc on large courses and 100,98,96,94 etc on small courses; this was so that clubs with more people in courses with small numbers didn’t have an excessive impact on the results. Ideally you would get the same score if you were 10% of the way down the field whatever course you were running. This ideal was impossible, but the scoring system up till last year made a good attempt.

Cup competitors at CSC final 2009:
Large courses
- Brown 84 (not disagreeing with Neil, these numbers exclude trophy competitors)
- Blue 111
Small courses
- Blue women 48
- Green men 50
- Green women 75
- Green vets 33
- Light Green 48
- Orange 53

It was realised that it was fairer to allow girls and boys an equal chance of scoring, so for 2010 the two junior courses were split again into Light Green Men and Women, Orange Men and Women, both scoring 100,96,92 etc. So the total scores available on these two courses are more or less the same as last year (actually marginally higher).

Personally I think they have it more or less right (though perhaps those on green women might disagree) after several years of refinement, but there are probably alternatives which are equally good.

[NeilC]

In recent years my club (SO) have regularly beaten our local rivals (SLOW) despite their greater strength in the Brown and Blue classes. Basing the scoring algorithm on the membership demographic seems entirely reasonable to me.

I am disappointed by clubs that decide to enter but then opt out of the final despite knowing exactly where it is when they entered.

I'm with NeilM40 on not wanting to combine it with something else. For distant events (eg Hexham, Clowbridge) we have travelled up on the Saturday and enjoyed the social aspect of travelling and staying in a hostel together. For the others we have gone up and down during the day on a coach. Again a good club activity and a captive audience from which to find missing event officials.

[Scott]

I am disappointed by clubs that decide to enter but then opt out of the final despite knowing exactly where it is when they entered.

If the winning club from a certain heat decides, with reasonable notice, that they don't want (or aren't able) to enter a team in the Final, should their place in the Final be offered to the second-placed team from that heat instead?

[frog]

That has happened in Scotland with teams enjoying the interScottish competition of the heats but unable/unwilling to travel for hours in a minibus to the final. The next team in line gets offered the place. I expect we'll all be keener ? next year ?2012 when final in the borders.
I agree with Andy that 1 event isn't enough to attract folk down from Scotland. A Saturday afternoon/evening event as well would be great.

[Mark T]

Maybe clubs opt out due to the crap areas used. In the last four years we have had 2010 Burbage Moor, 2009 Fineshade, 2008 Sutton Park, 2007 Blidworth. Apart from Sutton Park you can't call the other three good areas. It's either a slog across boring moorland or get ripped to shreds by brambles in LEI & NOC areas. (Hardly orienteering as it should be!)This is supposed to be Britain's BEST club competition so why use the worst areas? Surely clubs should be using their best areas in fact it should be limited to Scotland, the Lakes and sand dune areas of England and Wales then it could be called Britain's BEST club competition.

[redpossum]

Here's a full list of Final venues since it began:

1983 Tarn Hows NWOA
1984 Ogden Moor YHOA
1985 Strines YHOA
1986 Clowbridge NWOA
1987 Witherslack NWOA
1988 Sherbrook WMOA
1989 Castle Carr YHOA
1990 Bradgate Park EMOA
1991 High Pike NWOA
1992 Pwll Du WOA
1993 Thorndon Park EAOA
1994 Allean Forest SOA
1995 Grace Dieu EMOA
1996 Brown Clee WMOA
1997 Great Wood NWOA
1998 Slaley NEOA
1999 Burghfield Common SCOA
2000 Ilkley Moor YHOA
2001 Ecclesall Woods YHOA (not a full comp due to foot and mouth)
2002 Titterstone Clee WMOA
2003 Shouldham Warren EAOA
2004 Pillar Woods YHOA
2005 Clowbridge NWOA
2006 Greenham Common SCOA
2007 Blidworth EMOA
2008 Sutton Park WMOA
2009 Fineshade Woods EMOA

[RanaldMacdonald]

... and in 2011 the final will be on Longshaw Estate (EMOA) hopefully using the assembly area we used for the Harvester in 2004.

I'm finding this discussion very useful as we are just considering whether to stage an event on the Saturday or approach another club (SYO?) to do a double weekend with us.

In describing the nature of the event, BOF Competition Rules for the CSC/T state that:

The CompassSport Cup and CompassSport Trophy events are the premier inter-club
competitions for British clubs. The organising clubs should aim to make a real occasion out of it. It is intended to foster club spirit and be attractive both to competitors and to the club hosting it, for which it should be financially viable.

So, whilst I was initially attracted to the idea of a wider National Event on the Sunday, the individual element would seem to dilute the club spirit and inter-club competition implicit in the rules. Perhaps we should go further by having the British Relay Championships on the Saturday ... and another local event on the Sunday for those not in the Cup/Trophy finals. If it wasn't for limited daylight hours I might even suggest holding it after the finals.

Ranald

[awk]

Perhaps we should go further by having the British Relay Championships on the Saturday ... and another local event on the Sunday for those not in the Cup/Trophy finals. If it wasn't for limited daylight hours I might even suggest holding it after the finals.

The merging of the British Relay Champs and Compass Sport Cup/Trophy Final into one weekend has been long advocated by Peter Guillaume, who tried to make headway with the idea at BOF level without success. Personally, I thought and still think his idea should at least get a tryout - it sounded good. I think Peter even thought of taking it a stage further, and making the CSC/T a one-day match for all clubs.