Routegadget reproduction

[Gnitworp]

making detailed knowledge of heiroglyphs a key part is a majorly backward step.

Hear! hear! Plays havoc with my 'flow'!

[greywolf]

Not in any event I have anything to do with it ain't.

Seconded!
IMHO The planner's job is to test and challenge (and hopefuly delight) the competitor, not to trick or trap them ... and part of the controller's role is to ensure the event is organised fairly, which i would take to include removing tricks and traps, deliberate or otherwise (i.e. making sure circles and lines are broken appropriately etc)

[roadrunner]

I know that when I first encountered pictorial descriptions (at traditional forest events), it took a while for me to understand them, and even now there are some I don't know by heart. But I don't think they're so bad for urban events (in the main, anyway) - and a friend with no orienteering background, who's now done a few of these events with only pictorial descriptions, doesn't seem to have had any trouble understanding them.

[Strider]

In the interests of science, and because I've nothing better to do with my time on a Tuesday evening, I've been through maps on routegadget of urban races in the past year (some of which I was at) and here are some examples of where careful reading and interpretation of control descriptions is probably a must to avoid falling into the planner's 'trap' of ending up on the wrong side of an impassable wall/crag/fence:

Stockport - Controls 5 & 16 on the Black
http://www.mdoc.routegadget.co.uk/cgi-b ... =78&kieli=

City of London - Controls 1, 11, 14, 17 & 19 on course 1
http://www.slow.routegadget.co.uk/cgi-b ... =31&kieli=

Didcot - Controls 10, 12 & 18 on the Long
http://www.tvoc.routegadget.co.uk/tvoc/ ... d=7&kieli=

Skipton - Controls 15 & 18 on course 1
http://www.aire.routegadget.co.uk/cgi-b ... =33&kieli=

Chester - Controls 13 & 14 on the A course
http://www.dee.routegadget.co.uk/dee/re ... =40&kieli=

Sheffield - Control 7 on the B course (I remember this one caused a fair amount of debate last year)
http://www.syo.routegadget.co.uk/cgi-bi ... =16&kieli=

York - Controls 2, 4, 7 (which was a humdinger and caught a lot of people out), 9 (also a cracker, and resulted in one punter climbing off the castle walls to get to it!)
http://www.ebor.routegadget.co.uk/cgi-b ... =37&kieli=

I'm not saying it's right or wrong...I'm just saying it happens - don't shoot the messenger!

Have a nice evening everyone
S.

[Scott]

Or, restricting ourselves to "events that graeme has had something to do with", controls 11, 13, 24 and 25 on the long course at Edinburgh this year

[Mrs H]

But maybe they all had control descriptions that made things more clear - not less!

[King Penguin]

As I ran up through the park I couldn't decide if the crag (retaining wall) was allowed to be crossed or not. I tried looking on the map for a "thick line crag" but couldn't immediately see one for comparison, so I took the safe option and went round.

I spoke to Bill about it - he did the same but spotted a thick-line crag (beside the road) and therefore immediately realised that the retaining wall was only a thin line, so crossed it (up and down).

Me too -ran down to the top, couldn't decide on thickness of line so went round to play safe.

[pete.owens]

Looking at the IOF ISSOM 2007 guidelines:
...

201 Impassable cliff
An impassable cliff, quarry or earth bank (see symbol 106). Minimum height is 2 meters.

203 Passable rock face
Minimum height is 1 m.

And the crag is certainly not 2m high.... Interesting.... Thoughts of others on this one?

That seems to go against the spirit of ISSOM which emphasises crossability (at least it does for wall, fences, hedges) rather than height. Anything above 1.2m would represent a pretty serious obstacle to most competitors so the set of cliffs that are both crossable and taller than 1m must be fairly small.

I did think it must be a hangover from ISOM - but there is no height limit for impassible crags there (though the 1m limit does apply to passable crags, boulders and so on). There is probably a case for lowering all these limits for urban orienteering - a 0.5m boulder may be insignificant in a Swedish forest mapped to 1:15000, but very distinct in a park mapped at 1:4000.

[Strider]

Or, restricting ourselves to "events that graeme has had something to do with", controls 11, 13, 24 and 25 on the long course at Edinburgh this year

Nice one....

S.

[awk]

The issue here was an ambiguously interpretable written description. If it had been left as a pictorial description, none of this debate over tricksiness, siting of controls etc would have arisen. In the original form, there was nothing sneaky or otherwise about the control site - a straightforward control in a straightforward position, described fairly simply in the pictorial descriptions.

I have to disagree with Graeme on this one. To me, reading a control description accurately is part of the navigation - it's one of the tools that you are provided with - and I see nothing wrong and much right with siting controls which demand that level of precision, as long as the map can sustain that level of precision, which it could in this case. Of course, the description has to be clear, and I don't think that was the case in Mrs H's situation.

As for beginners, control descriptions are not that difficult to pick up, as I've discovered dealing with loads of young beginners. No more difficult than understanding map symbols, and to some extent easier. We are far too sensitive about such technical barriers - they are part of any sport, and I've rarely if ever heard people being put off because of that sort of challenge.

but it is completely opaque to newcomers, especially when translated into pictorials.

It's the written language that's completely opaque - the pictorials are very straightforward.

Its quite depressing how urban races have failed to bring in a cohort of new members.

If they have (and I've seen not overwhelming evidence that indicates otherwise) then I think there are far more significant issues than the issues you raise - like marketing, and local frequency etc.

As for those arguing against planner's traps. Traps are fine, indeed to be welcomed, as long as the evidence is all there clearly in front of you. Again, for those of us not on Course D, that was the case. The planner's trap wasn't (atleast deliberately) the obscure description, it was the possibility that you might misread the information provided, and I've no problem with that.

[pete.owens]

As for beginners, control descriptions are not that difficult to pick up, as I've discovered dealing with loads of young beginners. No more difficult than understanding map symbols, and to some extent easier.

Another reason for starting youngsters with pictorial descriptions, is that you are introducing them progressively - just as we do with every other aspect of the sport.
For White - combinations or road and path junctions just about covers it - but they probably only need to pay attention to the control codes.
For Yellow they might get oner or two more interesting descriptions - but if they navigate along line features to near the centre of the circle they should see the kite - and then learn what the symbol means from whatever object the kite is placed on.
For Orange it gets a bit more complicated, but the control sites should still be pretty straight forward, so whatever is on the map at the middle of the circle will usually do the trick.

This means that when they get to Light Green (and actually need descriptions), they have an idea how the description sheets are set out, and already know a fair few of the more common symbols - rather than suddenly throwing them in at the deep end as most clubs seem to do.

[graeme]

Or, restricting ourselves to "events that graeme has had something to do with", controls 11, 13, 24 and 25 on the long course at Edinburgh this year

Nice one....
S.

Come on guys, there isn't much the mapper can do about the planning and controlling , especially not if he's running the race!

York - Controls7 (which was a humdinger and caught a lot of people out), 9 (also a cracker, and resulted in one punter climbing off the castle walls to get to it!)

These are excellent examples of how it should be done. Excellent legs, with nice, unambiguous features like trees making it clear from the map where you're meant to go.

[Strider]

Or, restricting ourselves to "events that graeme has had something to do with", controls 11, 13, 24 and 25 on the long course at Edinburgh this year

Nice one....
S.

Come on guys, there isn't much the mapper can do about the planning and controlling , especially not if he's running the race!

Fair point...but I'll be watching...

S.

[graeme]

Fair point...but I'll be watching...
S.

Quite right too. You have two chances this very weekend - and if you complain publically(sic) about where I argued my case and lost I'll be delighted.

[Mrs H]

publically

I understand this particular spelling is sometimes used in a legal context confirmed by

where I argued my case and lost

this is getting exciting