Routegadget reproduction

[AndyC]

Do I take it that the "loose" descriptions and those on the map were different?

[Mrs H]

Yes the loose descriptions were written (junior course) the map descriptions were pictorial - to be honest I hadn't even noticed them as they were on a part of the map we didn't go near. The controller apologised handsomely and removed the leg which is all he could realistically do. I was just irritated because as you probably realise these things have a knock on effect which I felt had been ignored in Strider's slightly dismissive

The troublesome leg on D has been voided by the controller

like that meant every thing was fixed. I couldn't trust the next description - as the control down the passage seemed too easy and the circle was pulling me to the other side of the wall.....and maybe if I'd arrived at the busy road before the river crossing earlier I wouldn't have been held up by 30 secs of traffic. Who knows?

[Strider]

Do I take it that the "loose" descriptions and those on the map were different?

Yes, on course D they were pictorial on the map and the planner had then transcribed them into written form for the loose copies, but in doing so made the error of switching 'east side' to 'west side'... oops.

S.

[Strider]

I was just irritated because as you probably realise these things have a knock on effect which I felt had been ignored in Strider's slightly dismissive

The troublesome leg on D has been voided by the controller

like that meant every thing was fixed.

Please don't be so presumptive to interprete my statement as 'dismissive' when it was nothing of the kind. In this case I was reporting fact, simple as that, and I was not implying that everything 'was fixed' at all.

S.

[Mrs H]

Fair enough - could you give me a pointer on how to interpret the "oops" in the following ?

but in doing so made the error of switching 'east side' to 'west side'... oops.

[Marco Polo]

The circle size between routgadget and the map is very different. (The circle on RG barely goes beyond the path.) This would also mean that the relative width of the wall is greater on routegagdet and I think this makes it easier to place the centre of the circle on one side of the wall on routegadget. However I would also agree that the circle on routegadget is unlikely to be in exactly the same place as it has to be placed by hand.

But as I understand it, there isn't a requirment to have the centre of the circle on the feature, just that the control site is accurately described given where the circle has been placed.

[Scott]

However I would also agree that the circle on routegadget is unlikely to be in exactly the same place as it has to be placed by hand.

I think this is the answer to Mrs H's original question - getting the circles lined up in RouteGadget is a bit of an artform, and in this case it is probably just chance that the circle in RG is more obviously offset to the correct side of the wall than the circle on the map.

But as I understand it, there isn't a requirment to have the centre of the circle on the feature, just that the control site is accurately described given where the circle has been placed.

5.2.1 All course markings on the map shall be drawn according to the ‘International Specification for Orienteering Maps 2000’ (ISOM 2000), or the ‘International Specification for Sprint Orienteering Maps 2007’ (ISSOM 2007), subject to any specific British Orienteering amendments as described in Appendix B (Course Planning).

3.1.12 The site of each control shall be shown as the centre of a circle of 6mm diameter. ... If the control feature is shown on the map symbolically rather than to scale, the circle should be drawn so that the symbol lies exactly at the centre. For example, this means that if you use the east side of a dot knoll as a control site then the circle should be drawn around the middle of the symbol, not the east side of it. However, a feature such as a knoll shown by a ring contour (i.e. hill) is drawn to scale and the centre of the circle shall be drawn where the control site is (e.g. N side) rather than at the centre of the ring contour.

702 Control Point
The control points are shown with circles. The centre of the circle shows the precise position of the feature.

Edited to add quote from appendix B

[Strider]

Fair enough - could you give me a pointer on how to interpret the "oops" in the following ?

but in doing so made the error of switching 'east side' to 'west side'... oops.

Good Lord...and people wonder why more orienteers don't get involved in debate on Nopesport

[AndyC]

Can I try for you Strider was "oops" short for "that was an unfortunate error which wasn't spotted (but should have been) which we regret and humbly apologise for"?

[Mrs H]

Oh I feel better already

[Strider]

Can I try for you Strider was "oops" short for "that was an unfortunate error which wasn't spotted (but should have been) which we regret and humbly apologise for"?

As has been stated by Ranald on the forum here and in his controller's report on the results page..... but obviously we need to keep on grovelling to keep some people happy

S.

[EddieH]

One thing that comes out of this is that the SOA policy to use pictorial descriptions for ALL courses is much better than using text. "Wall inside SE corner" is UTTERLY unintuitive AND requires knowledge which is east, which way up the map is.

Many orienteers (particularly children do not know which is east and which west.

"SE corner" immediately implies (wrongly in this case) the SE side.

A symbol is not only intuitive but has the added benefit that the angle is the same as that the map is being viewed at regardless of orientation - INFINITELY easier.

[andy]

A symbol is not only intuitive but has the added benefit that the angle is the same as that the map is being viewed at regardless of orientation

unless the control description is strapped to your arm...

[Mrs H]

but obviously we need to keep on grovelling to keep some people happy

S.

You really are not getting this are you? Yes control 9 description was incontrovertibly wrong. The controller has apologised handsomely and done what he could. My gripe is with control 10 which I found ambiguous and which I am far from being alone in doing so. Your assertion that I am simply being unreasonable to feel that way is making me want to dig my heels in all the more. I have not and am not about to ask for the leg to be voided. That does not mean I am happy about it.

Out of interest - were you actually an official at this event - I'm just interested to know by what authority you state your case as you speak about both the planner and controller in 3rd person.

[Marco Polo]

However I would also agree that the circle on routegadget is unlikely to be in exactly the same place as it has to be placed by hand.

I think this is the answer to Mrs H's original question - getting the circles lined up in RouteGadget is a bit of an artform, and in this case it is probably just chance that the circle in RG is more obviously offset to the correct side of the wall than the circle on the map.

But as I understand it, there isn't a requirment to have the centre of the circle on the feature, just that the control site is accurately described given where the circle has been placed.

5.2.1 All course markings on the map shall be drawn according to the ‘International Specification for Orienteering Maps 2000’ (ISOM 2000), or the ‘International Specification for Sprint Orienteering Maps 2007’ (ISSOM 2007), subject to any specific British Orienteering amendments as described in Appendix B (Course Planning).

3.1.12 The site of each control shall be shown as the centre of a circle of 6mm diameter. ... If the control feature is shown on the map symbolically rather than to scale, the circle should be drawn so that the symbol lies exactly at the centre. For example, this means that if you use the east side of a dot knoll as a control site then the circle should be drawn around the middle of the symbol, not the east side of it. However, a feature such as a knoll shown by a ring contour (i.e. hill) is drawn to scale and the centre of the circle shall be drawn where the control site is (e.g. N side) rather than at the centre of the ring contour.

702 Control Point
The control points are shown with circles. The centre of the circle shows the precise position of the feature.

Edited to add quote from appendix B

Fair point- reading the rules 'n' all that

In practice i would expect circles to be centred with PC course setting and printing, and as the rest of the thread has indicated, the control description rather than the precise centre of the circle is the issue, especially if the width of the wall is considered to be mapped symbolically.