Lakes 5 Days 2010

[andy]

Not supplying water at the finish needs to become the norm. 3000+ bottles of water in a big truck in a muddy field is never fun (we got stuck at Spey 2007 for a few hours!)

Surely athletes can think to bring water to an event they're running in?!

[EddieH]

Quite how the organisers managed to produce (5) days in the Lakes with no significant undergrowth problems amazed me. I thought it was brilliant

[Homer]

....and no comment on the scoring system.
It must have been OK I guess

With my earlier post I was trying to move the debate away from mostly unjustified criticisms of the organisation onto the scoring system.
I know this is an endless debate and that there was a good article in CompassSport recently, but I wonder if any geeky statisticians out there want to have another look?

Basically the only truely fair system is that used at most multi day events abroad: the total time over all the days. Our problem is that we insist on using a best 4 from 6, or 4 from 5 (or 3 from 4 as it turned out) system.
When the results over the week are close, this often produces an arbitary result.

Take M45L last week.
Clive Hallett beat Charlie Adams by 9 points (taking best 3 of 4).
Using the Scottish 6 day system, Charlie would have won by 1 point.
Adding times for all 4 days, Charlie won by 56 seconds, but adding points for all 4 days Clive won by 7 points.

I'm no statistician, but this seems pretty random to me.
To make matters worse, because Clive started late on the last day, his time wasn't on the system before they presented the prizes and Charlie was presented with 1st prize!

[DM]

Quite how the organisers managed to produce (5) days in the Lakes with no significant undergrowth problems amazed me. I thought it was brilliant

Share you view.

On the same course as you I had about 500m of bracken in a total of 30 km of running, and over half of that was self inflicted due to being off any sensible line.

[andy]

I'm no statistician, but this seems pretty random to me.
To make matters worse, because Clive started late on the last day, his time wasn't on the system before they presented the prizes and Charlie was presented with 1st prize!

The big mistake with scoring systems is that people compare them, in a world with no perfect system (other than one which we have determined to not be feasible due to volunteers wanting to count) it makes no sense to argue. Take what the organising committee determines to be their scoring system and go with it, if you compare them you're only going to get frustrated and/or confused.
If you need consistency to win then plan to be consistent, if you need victories to win then maybe you can change tactically, 'go for it' on 3/5 days.

[SJC]

Our problem is that we insist on using a best 4 from 6, or 4 from 5 (or 3 from 4 as it turned out) system.

Not a problem if you know the rules beforehand, and the only sensible system when many competitors are also volunteers who may have to run after spending hours standing in the rain at the start, or at worst not be able to run at all on one day. If the scoring system forced them to run competitively every day then I am sure the willingness to volunteer to help would decrease dramatically.

[ba-ba]

I thoroughly enjoyed myself even if my own Orienteering was pants. As for the 'bonus' rest day, i couldn't think of a place I'd rather be with a day to kill than the lakes. Alas my list of the BG summits went unused, but I still managed to work on my stamina/ascending lakeland hills!

I find I only need water if it's on offer (no matter what the distance of race). I did drink from streams on on the warm open fell days, but I do this normally so it's no matter to me. On day 2 I just opened my mouth on the run!

[andypat]

The big mistake with scoring systems is that people compare them, in a world with no perfect system (other than one which we have determined to not be feasible due to volunteers wanting to count) it makes no sense to argue. Take what the organising committee determines to be their scoring system and go with it, if you compare them you're only going to get frustrated and/or confused.
If you need consistency to win then plan to be consistent, if you need victories to win then maybe you can change tactically, 'go for it' on 3/5 days.

Spot on Andy! If you enter the event then you accept the terms and conditions, including the scoring system. Use it to your advantage where you can.

[peawet08]

I'd just like to say that I am new to Orienteering. This is my first National event and I really enjoyed myself during the week.
With my 9 yr year old son, we helped out on Monday on the Big start and I enjoyed being able to give something back to the sport, even if it was only a small contribution.

I have been reading the comments posted on the forum since last week and feel that I am thouroughly frustrated enough now to comment and simply say that some people are just too selfish to appreciate the work that goes into putting these events on. People give up their free time for the sport we enjoy. Nature occasionally messes things up. Mishaps happen and events get affected, that's life, get over it. The organisers tried to show everybody an area that they felt would have provided for a good day of Orienteering.
The problem I find is that on forums such as these it's normally the views of the self obsessed individuals that take the focus of the thread and provoke most of the debate when in actual fact for the majority of people in the sport this view is not reflected. So if you are out there just reading these posts, please feel free to simply post and say that you enjoyed an event if you did as most organisers welcome your feedback and and are glad their efforts were not in vain.

I would like to thank all the organisers, planners and helpers for giving their time to make this event possible.

Mark

[IanD]

I have been reading the comments posted on the forum since last week and feel that I am thoroughly frustrated

Only a very few people have posted 'unreasonable' comments. And to be fair, they too were probably thoroughly frustrated at being denied orienteering due to alleged weather problems on a fine sunny day.

There will always be a few who moan, it's human nature. I'd like to echo what I believe to be the majority view in thanking the organisers, planners, helpers etc for their efforts.

Obviously everyone would like all good orienteering terrain to come with a nice hard-standing car park adjacent. But they don't, and the balance between easy organisation on indifferent areas and great areas with access difficulties is one that the organisers have to judge. Maybe with hindsight they got it wrong this time, but I'd certainly rather have four good areas, having lost one, than have five indifferent 'safe' areas. I particularly welcome the relative absence of bracken, and am happy to have long walks to start/finish to achieve this (although I appreciate that the very old and young may take a different view).

I enjoyed this Lakes 5, and expect to come to the next one. My thanks to everyone who helped to make it a success.

PS for clarity, the 'alleged' above is aimed at the landowner rather than the organisers.

[Lakes5]

Much of the discussion on the Day 3 cancellation has been based on assumptions about the facts. To set the record straight, I have posted a full explanation on the Lakes 5 website at http://lakes5.org.uk/day3_cancellation.shtml.

I appreciate the comments from those people who managed to enjoy the event despite the day 3 cancellation and I apologise to those who were seriously inconvenienced. There are lessons to learn after every event and I learnt a few last week.

Trevor Roberts
Lakes5 Coordinator

[EddieH]

Don't worry Trevor. Along with the vast majority I thoroughly appreciated your efforts. It was a really good week.

I think that neither the police nor United Utilities arguments stack up to anything sensible, but there is nothing you can do about that.

[sketchweppers]

I'd just like to say that I am new to Orienteering. This is my first National event and I really enjoyed myself during the week.
With my 9 yr year old son, we helped out on Monday on the Big start and I enjoyed being able to give something back to the sport, even if it was only a small contribution.

If your son was the young lad who gave us all the information at the end of the start ' lanes - please say 'well done' from me! I was really impressed and I doubt my kids (aged 11 and 13) would have helped out like that! Anyone who was prepared to stand there in all that rain and not get a run themselves deserves a medal! I understand from another member from SELOC (who was staying at our campsite) that most of the volunteers at either start did not get a run! At my local events I am quite happy to help out, and get a run too. I'm not sure that there are many people who are prepared to help out all day for nothing!
This was my first Lakes 5 event and I thoroughly enjoyed myself - and hopefully my interpretation of contours has improved vastly during the week. Yes, I was disappointed about the cancellation of Day 3, but I don't think that it spoilt my enjoyment of the week - I enjoyed having 2 free days instead. These things happen, we have to accept it, and I don't blame any of the organisers or volunteers at all. Many thanks to all of you who helped to put on the event. We need al the volunteers we can get - at our last event our club struggled to get enough helpers on the day.
Looking forward to my next multiday event in 2011!

[youngladdie]

The quiz answers are on the site - but does anyone know the results / who won?
Thanks

[Lakes5]

The quiz answers are on the site - but does anyone know the results / who won?
Thanks

Also - does anyone know where the main competition prizes can be claimed from / collected / arranged for delivery?
thanks

Quiz answers and winners are on the Lakes5 website as are the contact details for any queries.