Relay Tips

[ba-ba]

I read somewhere about someone at a multiday who'd misspunched on one of the earlier days, so was out of the running overall. He had a 'known follower' starting a bit ahead of him, so decided to overtake him and see what happened. Once he'd got infront he went on a magical mystery tour way off the map for about 40 minutes. The 'known follower' did what he does and tagged on. Needless to say everyone who had fingered him as a follower previously found the incident immensely gratifying/hilarious.

[Spookster]

As all 3 runners were pretty much the fastest leg runner apart from being out sprinted on the run in they wondered what tactics they could have used.

Another tactic would have been to tell the offending team that following is cheating, and then put in a protest if the following was blatant. When you read this, it seems that it was. You would certainly protest at international level, but perhaps not for a junior class at the Scottish Champs - just put it down to experience.

[jab]

just put it down to experience.

and set to work to improve your 1500m time.

[Scott]

You would certainly protest at international level

And, based on past evidence, your protest would probably be thrown out by the jury.

[greywolf]

Lateral thinking: If your team members are good enough to come 1st & 3rd in M16A and 1st in M18L, then maybe instead of entering the Junior race and getting outsprinted in a lightgreen/orange/lightgreen burnup, they should've entered (and almost certainly won) the Senior race as a 12-point handicap team, where there was all the gaffling they could want (far too much in my opinion ) and they would be competing against slow old fools who can't sprint and don't check control codes or get to the changeover pen in time....

[madmike]

Don't beat yourself up Greywolf - give it a decade or 2, and your team mates will forgive and forget

[mappingmum]

When you read this, it seems that it was.

I think what I might have tried (but of course would never have had the idea during the race) would have been to turn right onto the road after control 142 or 144 (or similar) heading directly to 101 and the finish. As soon as your shadow sees the spectators huddled around 101 and the assembly area, they would hopefully sprint past, and leave you, the navigator, to turn back to complete the last couple of controls (eg 145) across the road in the final loop.

You're going to tell me that Light Green wasn't designed like that, aren't you?

[Olsoran]

they should've entered (and almost certainly won) the Senior race as a 12-point handicap team, where there was all the gaffling they could want (far too much in my opinion ) and they would be competing against slow old fools who can't sprint and don't check control codes or get to the changeover pen in time....

Don't beat yourself up Greywolf - give it a decade or 2, and your team mates will forgive and forget

..but then again some other slow old fools, and also one possibly less slow and definitely less old did check codes and I can assure you they forgave and forgot immediately

[frog]

Looking at Mr A's excerpt linked to by Lost Again I'm surprised people know that if you have the same first leg you will have the same last leg.
How did they know it would go ABA for both teams and not ABA and ABB?
We are pretty rubbish at all this relay tactic stuff, we don't discuss which teams had the same gaffle on the first leg and plan who to follow, we just sit and chat inbetween legs.
The faster orienteers do seem to get up to more dodgy behaviour than the slower ones.

[jab]

First leg gaffles: AA, AB, BA, BB
2nd leg ungaffled
corresponding third legs have to be
BB, BA, AB, AA

If two runners know that they have run exactly the same course (and it doesn't have to be anything sinister, just "how was it?" "OK, I was running with X all the way") then 3rd leg runners know that they can expect to be running with Y. Only way to stop that transfer of information would be to isolate incoming runners from outoing ones and that's complete overkill for this level of event.

No impression was received here of any sinister behaviour, no offence was taken about it and as Greywolf points out, if navigation is your strength, next time make sure you run a relay that requires more of it!

[graeme]

You're going to tell me that Light Green wasn't designed like that, aren't you?

No, I'm going to tell you Chris was ahead for the last three legs, that he's a bl**dy good orienteer, and getting better at a frightening rate.

I was recently doing one of those IOF reports about following that people obsess about from time to time. The one striking thing was that most of the elite athletes (though not the team managers) regarded following as part of the game: that if you qualify high enough, you earn the right to follow. That was for individuals - in a relay or mass start using other runners is totally fair, and an essential part of the fun.

Which brings us right back to the original question, which is exactly the right question, "How could I have won this race against a faster runner?", not what it's nope-morphed into: "how can I make this junior and recent convert to orienteering feel really bad about using his running talent".

No wonder we have a recruitment problem

Yes, I do remember the similar comments last time INT got a junior cross country runner interested: luckily Mr.Fraser stuck at it

[LostAgain]

I'm not suggesting anything sinister or that anything was wrong and it is other contributors who are suggesting which team and which event.

If you and your team mates are recognised and known to be some of the best in your age class then you can expect to be "used" and abused!. Wearing a "GB" or "England" top is almost flagging this.

I was just asking for any suggestions of what you can do if you are subjected to this.

Running out of class seems a little extreme. If it is the National Championships then it seems right to enter your targetted Age class.

[DavidJ]

Not providing a real 'tip', just a recollection... Many years ago at the BUSF Champs in Eccleshalll Woods, Sheffield, our tactic was to put our fastest runner but relatively very weak orienteer out on the first leg. It might have been before gaffling days but in any case he brought us back in about 3rd place. I set off on the second leg and, I think, improved our position and our final leg brought us in first.

However, there were certainly comments from some other first leg runners that our man had spent most/all of the time following. At the time I thought that it showed that our selection tactic had worked perfectly. As I was not in the wood to see what actually happened I could not have a view on whether it should have been considered 'cheating'.

I remember it as one of the highlights of my orienteering. A few others might regard it differently.

[LostAgain]

Obvious things...

run a lot faster for a bit.
run a lot slower and hope they go ahead.
take a route (terrain/path) which suits you, regardless of whether it's really best
take a route through low visibility terrain
given two choices, set off on one route choice, then zag back to the other. Unless the follower is blindly following you they will hesitate, giving you a gap
turn your headlamp off
make a big mistake


... I've done all these in relays/mass start races - they can all work. Since I'm about the slowest runner in my peer group, waiting for a sprint finish is never appealing.

This seems to be the most constructive advice to come out of the request. Plus of course do more Sprint and 1500m training

Of course some of the above is dependent upon how close the rest of the teams are, you could get sucked back in and end up with a 3, 4 or even more head to dead sprint and lose out altogether

I think in relays "following" is actually a valid tactic as the post above has suggested, putting your weakest runner on 1st leg in order to be pulled along by the pack is a tactic practised by many.

The thread was really aimed at asking what you can do to get away from said followers.

[Mrs H]

More cheetahs less cheaters I guess I still don't understand your deliberate mis-punching comment.