Urban race classes

[Mrs H]

Your all making us sound a bit pathetic - i'd rather run further with the W40s than shorter with the junior course which according to the BOF guidelines will be of a lesser technical difficulty. Even if it means being on my knees by the end.

I can confirm IanD suspicion that being at the lower end of an age class makes you feel a lot keener than at the top end. I see from the guidelines also there is provision for Ultra Vet Men (M70+) but not women - why not? When the times comes I will be demanding it!

[Barny of Blandford]

Mrs H

Surely not for years and years yet!!!

[Red Adder]

Here's a thought... If you insist on running "what you want" then fine , but don't expect to always run against your age/gender peers - accept that you are running against the challenge set by the planner.

If an event is creted as age/gender specific competition then it is fair that each cohort should be determined in relation the standard set for M21, adjusted according to the published coefficients, but also taking in to account the logistics of the event and a realistic number of courses being set.

[roadrunner]

If an event is creted as age/gender specific competition then it is fair that each cohort should be determined in relation the standard set for M21, adjusted according to the published coefficients, but also taking in to account the logistics of the event and a realistic number of courses being set.

It's interesting to compare the orienteering speeds assumed for different age classes with those used for age grading for road running. You can't do this with the latest guidelines, because they just give course length ratios, but you can with the previous version.

Relative to M21, the speeds of M40, M50 and M60 in orienteering were quoted as 89%, 79% and 68%, while for road running (average of 10k and half marathon) they are 96%, 88% and 81%. Maybe there's a case for using different factors for urban events, since it seems that the older competitors slow down relatively more in the forest than on the roads?

[gg]

Comments on these combinations / approx lengths? Assuming M16s run 'real' courses, where do they fit in?

1 Mens open 6.4km (actual distance 10km)
2 Womens open, M40+ 4.8km (actual distance 7.2km)
3 W40+, M55+ 3.4km (actual 5km)
4 W55+, M70+ 2.4km (actual 3.8km)
5 M/W 14- 2.5km park-o

[Homer]

You're now pretty much spot on according to Guideline E.

M16/18 go on course 2

W16/18 go on course 3

[yted]

We've just finished the planning of the York event this year and the courses are:
A 5.5Km approx. NOPEsport League men’s open, M40+
B 5.0Km approx. NOPEsport League women’s open, W40+, M55+, M18-
C 3.5Km approx. NOPEsport League W55+, W18-
D 2.5km approx NOPEsport League M16-, W16-
Of course actual minimum running distances are about one and a half times these distances but it's flat with no brambles. I always worry about the juniors. The distance is pretty fixed by how far you can run inside the area of pedestrianisation/very quiet roads (with so many pedestrians that traffic speeds are very slow) without the map becoming absurdly overcomplicated. I wouldn't personally want to be responsible for juniors running in competition across busy roads with free-flowing traffic. I have always made the course as technically difficult as possible and agree that young juniors don't seem to have a problem with this. This year, due to the use of two campuses (one university and on private school) near the city centre, all the courses are pretty intense in their demand for swift and careful route choice and accurate navigation (I've just counted 132 decison points needed to complete the C course).
But back to the main point: planners and controllers have to consider the risks to juniors in competitons very carefully before deciding the areas they should be allowed to run in. There can be no general rule.

[HOCOLITE]

Comments on these combinations / approx lengths? Assuming M16s run 'real' courses, where do they fit in?

1 Mens open 6.4km (actual distance 10km)
2 Womens open, M40+ 4.8km (actual distance 7.2km)
3 W40+, M55+ 3.4km (actual 5km)
4 W55+, M70+ 2.4km (actual 3.8km)
5 M/W 14- 2.5km park-o

I would run this race as I'd be happy with an actual of 5km but I'd not do the York as I consider that too far.
That of course is my opinion. As I enjoy the challenge, exploration of this type of race I'd like to feel I could do more, there are other factors that influence decisions like distance to travel and other activities.

[GML]

What do people think is optimal balance of classes?

Is this acceptable for most people?

1 Mens open
2 Womens open, M40+
3 W40+, M55+
4 M/W 14 (not crossing roads - or should it be M/W16?)

Do W55+ feel hard done by that they have to compete with W40s?

GG please, please, please let M/W16s run a proper course (the best ones will want to run the Mens and Womens open; you could also let them run down one course i.e. the same as the M/W40s). By all means let them also be competitive on the junior course, but please give the best juniors the option of running a proper course.

If a course it isn't safe for an M/W16 then how is it safe for an adult?

[DaveR]

What do people think is optimal balance of classes?

Is this acceptable for most people?

1 Mens open
2 Womens open, M40+
3 W40+, M55+
4 M/W 14 (not crossing roads - or should it be M/W16?)

Do W55+ feel hard done by that they have to compete with W40s?

GG please, please, please let M/W16s run a proper course (the best ones will want to run the Mens and Womens open; you could also let them run down one course i.e. the same as the M/W40s). By all means let them also be competitive on the junior course, but please give the best juniors the option of running a proper course.

If a course it isn't safe for an M/W16 then how is it safe for an adult?

I agree with GML, your course 4 should be for M/W12 (and perhaps 14s, though I'd argue strongly against it). No way should competitive 16s be doing a simple park run.

Look at the results from the Edinburgh City Race for example. There was a long, a short and a yellow course and I know of several W14s who ran well in the short course. Even my W12 thought the Yellow was a bit easy* and I have let her do more complicated courses where there was less traffic and a slightly shorter technical course.

*Absolutely no criticism of the Edinburgh race. It was great and I can see exactly why the yellow course was as it was.

[Scott]

Sadly it's often out of the organising club's hands - speaking from experience, health & safety bods at city/town councils are sometimes not inclined to give permission for events that involve "children" (however they choose to define that) racing around streets with traffic on them.

[GML]

Sadly it's often out of the organising club's hands - speaking from experience, health & safety bods at city/town councils are sometimes not inclined to give permission for events that involve "children" (however they choose to define that) racing around streets with traffic on them.

Scott, I fully understand that this may sometimes be the case (and that insurers may similarly impose such restrictions), but where they don't, it would be good if organisers (and BOF) could have faith in the ability of the parents of juniors to decide for themselves whether or not a particular junior should be allowed to run a proper urban course (with the parent signing an indemnity if you like). I for one was very disappointed that older juniors were not permitted to run the elite course at the British Elite Sprints, apparently at the insistence of BOF (since the organisers had previously said that they would permit this if parents signed a consent form). Does anyone know why BOF insisted on this restriction?

For a sport that has in the past promoted itself on fostering independence in youngsters, it is very disappointing that we should be taking such a "nanny state" approach. What next? No juniors to compete on high fell courses as they might get lost and suffer hyperthermia?

As I said before, if it isn't safe for older juniors, why is it safe for adults? (Or perhaps I shouldn't ask that question as the answer might be: You're right, it isn't safe for adults - urban O should be banned!)

[andypat]

I'd say the key there is making sure the pre-race information is clear on the nature of the area and the relative risks. An area such as Edinburgh is clearly a full on urban race with busy roads and associated risks to the inexperienced.

The risk might be much less so if there area is residential with no major roads, or where the planner can avoid the worst of the traffic with bridges, underpasses etc.

If thats clear to people in advance then people can make up their own minds.

[jab]

I asked why juniors weren't allowed to run the open course at the Elite sprints this year (since oldest child ran open at the British Elite Sprints in Nottingham last year as a 14, but couldn't run it this year as a 16). The reply I got from the organisers was that:
"Unfortunately, we have been advised that under BSEOC insurance policy guidelines competitors aged M/W16 and under are not covered to compete on courses 'that tempt them (or require them) to run across roads that contain traffic'. "

I did email British Orienteering to ask for an explanation as to why this had changed for 2010, but nobody ever replied.

[GML]

I'd say the key there is making sure the pre-race information is clear on the nature of the area and the relative risks. An area such as Edinburgh is clearly a full on urban race with busy roads and associated risks to the inexperienced.

The risk might be much less so if there area is residential with no major roads, or where the planner can avoid the worst of the traffic with bridges, underpasses etc.

If thats clear to people in advance then people can make up their own minds.

Agreed, which is why it was quite so galling (sp?) that older juniors were prohibited from competing on the open courses at the Elite Sprint Champs since there was very little traffic and we even had the Police stopping traffic for runners at what I assume was considered the most dangerous crossing! (From what I heard the town council was actually keen for the courses to spend more time in the town centre!)