Eden Event

[Mrs H]

It's a shame this part of the thread can't be separated from the Eden Project one as I'm sure more people would be interested in reading it but arn't looking because they didn't go to the event.

[HOCOLITE]

I've just read it. And it is interesting particularly the logo.

I thought I might have 'cheated' at Guildford. No advantage as I dithered for ages trying to decide if I was allowed to jump down the metre drop. Eventually I did, afterwards in discussion I found that the line was not thick so not uncrossable. I learnt from this but even now I find it pretty difficult at times to work out on sprint /urban maps if an alley is 'a goer' due to the line at the end. At Nottingham it was compounded by circle not going over the point in question. When in doubt I tend to proceed with caution and if proved wrong retrace my steps.

[IanD]

By the way, RouteGadget is now up for the Eden Project Event:

http://www.kerno.routegadget.co.uk/cgi-bin/reitti.cgi

So it will be interesting to see whether those that went across uncrossable features, intentionally or not, show it on their RouteGadget.

They will have to - there was no other way of visiting all the controls.

[firhayes]

I have done quite a few urban events and I understand the rules for these events, yet I still managed to break them in this event. I punched a control through a crossable fence but in doing so crossed some olive green (it was bare earth about 5 metres wide by one of the car parks). I didn't even realise I had transgressed until it was pointed out by a colleague at the finish.

[DM]

I have done quite a few urban events and I understand the rules for these events, yet I still managed to break them in this event. I punched a control through a crossable fence but in doing so crossed some olive green (it was bare earth about 5 metres wide by one of the car parks). I didn't even realise I had transgressed until it was pointed out by a colleague at the finish.

I know the control you mean and you are not alone in punching through the fence.

You say you know the rules, yet you crossed the 5 m wide olive green strip which demonstrates you don't know the rules. What is crossable to you as a strip of bare earth was not to the landowner which is why it was mapped as olive green. If you crossed olive green this early in the course I dread to think where else you crossed it

Thank you for admitting your mistake and volunteering to be marked as dsq in the results.

[Scott]

Assuming we're looking at the same control (3 on Oak?) it is a narrow strip of olive OOB that on the ground looks pretty similar to the immediately adjacent (in-bounds) areas. It's plausible that someone might know the rules but still go OOB here as a result of careless map reading. It's not an excuse - it's still breaking the rules and they should be DSQed.

But it's also a good example of how planners might try reduce the possibility of error due to competitor stupidity - <hindsight>for instance, I don't think there's any particular reason why the adjacent yellow area couldn't have been olive green as well, making a wider and more obvious strip of OOB on the map</hindsight>.

I was very nearly caught out by the thin strip of olive green between 3 and 4 on Teak - on unexpectedly reaching a scrappy hedge I stopped, took my glasses off and squinted at the map to ascertain whether or not I was allowed to go straight through it. I can imagine how some fitter, more competitive type might have charged through it without even registering its presence on the map.

[Clarificatory edit: It would obviously be the competitor who was in the wrong, and again they should be DSQed. But it's not that hard to see how they might never realise that they went out-of-bounds unless somebody points it out to them.

At the moment I still don't think a lot of people generally take OOB in urban races seriously enough, and I don't think they are going to until people start getting regularly DSQed for violating them.]

[firhayes]

The point I was trying to make, was that even though I do know the rules, somehow my brain was not in sprint/urban mode until after I went through the turnstiles. I certainly did not go OOB anywhere else on the course.

[DM]

The point I was trying to make, was that even though I do know the rules, somehow my brain was not in sprint/urban mode until after I went through the turnstiles. I certainly did not go OOB anywhere else on the course.

As Eddie H pointed out earlier,Olive Green is OOB on any orienteering map, so either you don't know the rules or your brain was not in orienteering mode from the start onwards.

The Olive green at Eden was perfectly OK for others, one thing that struck me when looking at the map at registration was "what a lot of out of bounds - looks like tracks most of the way". There was some slow run green on the map and this was distinctly different.

One runner has added his course on Routegadget and clearly shows he went OOB at 3 on Oak. Hope organisers amend the results accordingly.

Scott commented that a fitter, more competitive runner might just charge towards the control, cross the uncrossable, punch and continue - exactly what GG did NOT do, he overtook me just before this and was seen to carefully check the map before going to 3 through the car park.

[Homer]

Is anyone else having problems with Routegadget for this event?

I'm trying to input my (hopefully legal) route but the map won't load...

[EddieH]

I am also confident that had GG not done so and accidentally crossed a small strip of OOB he would have DQ'd himself when he realised.

[graeme]

As Eddie H pointed out earlier, Olive Green is OOB on any orienteering map, .

Erm, well, strictly it isn't in ISOM, see.

http://www.barebones.ca/2010 Forbidden features.pdf

Not that I've ever been to an event where there wasn't some local rule making it OOB.

At the JK, you could jump across one section of OOB without touching it. Illegal? If you think the OOB extends infinitely upward, than remember that the stake with the punch on it was in the same flowerbed, easily punched with your feet in bounds.

[sketchweppers]

Is anyone else having problems with Routegadget for this event?

I'm trying to input my (hopefully legal) route but the map won't load...

I too thought that it wasn't working, but it is a high resolution map with loads of white space round the outside. It takes a bit of time to load, but then you need to decrease the scale and then move the cursor till you find the map and then enlarge it again.

I manually entered my route - didn't dare put the GPS track on, because it it quite hard to fit the track to the actual paths, and I don't want anyone thinking I crossed any OOB!

[EddieH]

Graeme, your link doesn't seem to work. However the IOF map specifications define the colour as "Settlement". That it is out of bounds is implicit rather than directly stated, however as vertical black lines which surely are OOB are given as an alternative this would rather reinforce my inference that it is.

Indeed I remember a JK where a top elite runner suddenly realised that the road he was running down to his first control had no exit without crossing olive green. He turned round at considerable cost of time to himself. He was certainly clear that the symbol is OOB, it has never occured to me that the planner intended people to go that way. Mind you there have been a few occasions where a control has been placed in such an area

[Tatty]

I remember that well as I too did the same thing

[simonbeck8848]

OK back in the UK for a couple of weeks and time to troll the O-forums again.

To my mind a lot of the problems at Eden reflect the fact that in 'real' orienteering you are allowed to go anywhere other than a few off limits areas here and there (and when people used to invite me to plan events the guidelines instructed planners not to tempt competitors to cross out of bounds areas. ) Nagivating your way around an area that is mainly out of bounds isn't real orienteering to my mind. Not when the main problem appears to be working out where you're ALLOWED to go rather than which is the fastest route.

I presume the Eden event was just a fun event, and don't intend to criticise the planners beyond suggesting that if there's a next time, it might be an idea to go round the course beforehand to try to see the competitors' view, but I wonder how long it will be before there's aggro at one of these park-O type races where prizes are at stake.
Perhaps that's the answer. It's appropriate for fun events but when people are expected to take it seriously can they be expected to DQ themselves for one studmark in a flower bed? I can only speak for myself but if I came charging along a path and found it totally blocked by a group of tourists or families with pushchairs etc, I wouldnt slow to walking speed or head for the smallest gap and risk hurting someone, I'd leave the path for a few steps. You're not saving time against what you'd have done had the walkers not been in the wrong place at the wrong time, it isn't really cheating, but you've still broken the rules. Can serious competitors be expected not to, when races are timed to the nearest 0.1 of a second?

I read the post about how someone U-turned on a road when he realised it was a cul-de-sac in an area of olive green. Had that been a proper event, he would have been allowed to go through the green either side of the road, he might well have lost time but to my mind proper oreinteering means you're allowed to do that if you want to.

Anyway, I'm glad everyone seems to have enjoyed the season's events, there don't seem to be many complaints about.

Simon