On-line entry system

[Clive Coles]

I note from the 2009 Annual report that:

the online entry system has been put back until outstanding issues with the event registration system have been resolved

I am happy with that.

Perhaps however this is a good time to debate what (or if) we expect(need) from such a BOF facility. It could replace the functionality that is currently provided by such systems as Fabian4 and OO entries. A BOF facility IMO needs to provide functionality which is at least as good as these software solutions. Not an insignificant software development.

on-line entry facilities come at a cost ~ we are currently charged an amount per entry as a processing charge. Can anyone explain what is being proposed by BOF as a way of covering processing costs ?

Will they be free for BOF registered clubs ? Sound nice but I don't believe there is such a thing as a free lunch. The costs will neeed to be covered somehow.

Will there be an increased levy for events which use the facility ? if so "how much" ?

And then there is the on-going development costs themselves for introducing this facility to the web site.

What we now use for on-line entries works ~ we know the cost.

Can these development costs (what ever they are) be justified when fewer events seem to attract sufficient numbers to make such facilities necessary ?

We don't really know enough concerning what is being planned. They could be great.

I accept that levy needs to rise year on year to cover administration (and IT development) but we should have a clearer idea as to what is coming next and what the financial implications are for our sport.

Will not be at the AGM myself. Anyone willing to ask a question under Any other Business ?

[King Penguin]

"If it ain't bust, don't fix it."

There's already several online entry facilities available (some better than others in my opinion), so why add another ? Let BOF head office concentrate on areas where they can add value, and not reinventing the wheel where it is not necessary.

[andypat]

I suppose the value BOF could add is that potentially this money could stay within the main structure of Orienteering rather than going to those few enterprising individuals who have developed these sites, presumably as a business operation. However there is a risk that the cost of developing this could weigh signficantly against any potential future benefits so presumably would need to be investigated before any decision was made.

Agree with KP that there is an existing solution to this and at present maybe energies and monies better spent elsewhere.

[frog]

Agree with KP. I'm happy to keep the fabian 4 and oentries folk in jobs.

[Clive Coles]

I admit, I am usually in the

If it ain't bust, don't fix it

camp. We don't have to change everything !

It must have been 2008 when I first became aware of this IT development. I made some initial comments as it seemed at the time the functionality proposed was more concerned with the collection of money than with the managing of the event. ( e.g. Start times, split times for families etc).

Thinking may have changed, but I picked up that BOF wanted to collect the money up front and then pass back entry revenue to clubs.

I was uneasy with this but agreed to back off to allow for the on-line fixtures registration to have priority in the development schedule.

But, as the Annual report hints, on-line entries is still in the frame for development. May even be worked on later this year.

I am trying to keep an open mind. I am looking for someone in the know to tell us what is being planned, what facilities the software will support and what will be the costing implications for clubs.

IT projects however do seem to have a momentum of their own. Once they start they are difficult to reign in

If it is good... let's go for it. But if it costs too much we have better things to be doing.

[Big Jon]

I don't see any point in BOF spending large amounts of money (it is IT after all) developing another on line entry system. There are (at least) two commercial systems up and running and working pretty well. Is the intention to undercut these commercial operations? Or will major events (eg BOC, JK etc) be forced to use this new system?

[AAH]

As well as beating up on private enterprise, which hardly encourages investment in the orienteering community, another disadvantage of a BOF online entry system is that it would keep orienteering cut off from participants in other sports using online entry websites.

With some of the online entry services, orienteering events are listed alongside other sports. For example, anyone entering the Carnethy 5 hill race (>500 people) or Pennine Bridleway Relay (95 teams of 10) used the SportIdent website to enter, where they will have seen lots of orienteering and other events listed. Maybe some will try orienteering one day as a result. This could also happen with Fabian4.

I’ve already seen at least one non-orienteering event I'd never heard of that I’d been keen to enter in a future year while entering an orienteering event. Online entry sites which cover multiple sports are probably indirectly helping publicise orienteering to people who already do serious competitive sport – a major target market! Removing orienteering from this current trend wouldn’t help.

[RS]

Totally agree with KP, Frog and AAH.

[Clive Coles]

Thanks RS

Is there anyone out there who will champion the cause ?

The danger is BOF will deliver something (that will cost £? ) which we don't appear to want or need.

Not the first time ~ does anyone actually use the internal BOF Message system ? Every time I log into the web site I get told I have no messages ~IMO pure baggage. It was an unnecessary facility that was never requested. We didn't know it was coming until it was delivered.

A white elephant.

[harry]

those few enterprising individuals who have developed these sites, presumably as a business operation.

I'm happy to keep the fabian 4 and oentries folk in jobs.

Not sure if these comments above were serious?? Especially the 2nd one!!!

If BOF want a dedicated system built to rival oentries (which is constantly being developed and improved) at commercial web development prices it would cost a fortune.

Remember that technology moves forward so fast. New tools and even new browsers are being released all the time. You need a system that keeps pace with all that.

I guess the dream is to have one system/ site where event organisers can quickly and easily set up events, people can enter events, perhaps even integrated with results/ rankings and so on. It would be nice. ?

I'm skeptical. Especially if several committees of "intelligent" orienteers with little knowledge of web development try to micro manage a skilled web developer into building a heavy complicated system with every feature they want, exactly how they want it, from a user perspective.. argh that could get ugly and very very expensive!

[DJM]

Going back through my files I see that I wrote to the BOF Chairman in 2003 as follows

I suggest a radical re-think is needed about the way we treat the whole issue of computing support for events organisers so that (a) there's a "one stop shop", i.e. the new website, for anything to do with BOF events, and
(b) to stop the massive amount of reinvention of wheels which goes on whenever an event (particularly a major one) is staged by a club.

What I have in mind is the following:-

* As many aspects of event organisation as possible are centralised in order to make things easier for both competitors and organisers.
* BOF commissions software to handle entries, start lists, results display, rankings calculations - all as one integrated suite.
* As soon as an event is registered, an event "website" is created within the BOF site; access to the site is given to the organiser who can then input event details such as entry form parameters.
* Competitors should be encouraged to enter and pay for pre-entry events by online means as much as possible. The old postal option should remain for those who have no web access, but entries secretaries should find that the burden on them is much reduced by the majority who enter online (especially if it's cheaper to do so).
* If competitors enter details such as preferred start times, whether or not split times are wanted, etc online, then software could be coded to produce start lists, which could easily seed runners where necessary by linking into the rankings database.
* Start lists could be generated in such a way that vacant slots are left for late entries. Late entries could automatically be charged a higher entry fee if this is the policy of the organisers. [We should be making entries as easy as possible for those who, often through no fault of their own, miss event closing dates. This means that they must be strongly encouraged to make extra maps available for this]
* Organisers would be given the ability to export data about their event (e.g. start lists).
* All results processing should be done via the website: clubs should submit electronic files of results (just as is done at present to the rankings page) to the website which will then fulfil various requirements:-
(a) it will display all results of all BOF events, and then archive them thereafter in perpetuity.
(b) it will perform any relevant calculations on the results, e.g. Badge times, rankings points, which the organisers should then include within any printed versions of the results.

Seven years later, much of this has been fulfilled, the main missing link being centralised online entries. Whilst I fully agree with the points made already, it's worth pointing out the opposite side of the coin also - i.e. the benefits of having a fully integrated suite of event services as outlined above.

[andy]

Competition is most definitely the best thing possible for online entry systems and I really hope BO(F) stay away from it.

we currently have 3 widely used systems (oentries, fabian4 and sientries) and all of them have their good/bad points, but as Harry says the key is advancing with the times, which (unless you're doing it yourself as with (to a certain extent) the 3 systems mentioned above) is a very very costly venture.

[Red Adder]

The best bits of IT in O (OCAD SI EMIT) have all been developed independly by commercial organisations - things like the BOF web page / ranking lists / event lists are OK but have subject to a great deal of fairly negative comment.

This to me gives a good indication of the way we should go. I've used fabian4 several times and found it OK (bar there being no obvious way to change course) and would be disappointed in BOF spent money devloping its own version.

If BOF really want to spend money the best way is on initiatives to increase membership and participation - what we are worst at but without which tin a few years time there will be nobody to collect entry fees from.

[MIE]

...........I've used fabian4 several times and found it OK (bar there being no obvious way to change course) ...................

Try using the amend entry function

[Adrian]

I also vote against a BOF online entry system.