AGM Levy Options

[Homer]

aren't you using their insurance?

[RJ]

Yes, Homer, probably.

But then BOF are using our resource of adults/volunteers who give up an incredible amount of time to drive this development project. Just because we have been successful and got large numbers is no reason to tax us.

Anyone who has worked with schools in trying to provide orienteering will agree that it is a very special case, quite unlike graeme's activities of £10 a shot. Schools have to get the kids to the events.... transport costs are very significant. Spookster's 16p a head levy works out at a significant fraction of what we recover from each participant, and those funds have to pay for mapping, sometimes toilets, and travel expenses for the volunteers.

It would probably be best to declare 195 as the highest participation we get, pay no levy, and to hell with letting Sport England know that it is actually better than that.

[SeanC]

Some of that money will go to BOF development initiatives and marketing which will increase junior participation elsewhere. Publicising WCOC's successes in Focus comes under this category. It might not help WCOC but an isolated success will not ensure the sport's long term future.

Not sure about the £10 per head market value though. My wife is a PE teacher and when I asked her this question a while ago she was of the opinion that about £3 per activity was OK, but above this level it starts to deter the lower income families.

[graeme]

But then BOF are using our resource of adults/volunteers who give up an incredible amount of time to drive this development project. Just because we have been successful and got large numbers is no reason to tax us.

So funnily enough I also do a lot of work on local development projects, which is also successful. I don't particularly like paying BOF taxes either. But I don't ban particular age groups from events: so the question is, why do you expect me to pay for your taxes as well as my own?

[Jon X]

Don't worry Graeme - sounds like the schoolkids are being charged directly for event volunteer travel expenses and for the costs of producing a reusable map, it is only the insurance for the volunteers and the kids you are being asked to pay for!

Although I do wonder whether it is really the case that those volunteers believe they are giving up their time to BOF rather than to the kids/schools/local club

[HOCOLITE]

We've just held our Schools Champs- a one off where there were no adult runners, and we received Junior Exemption. We charged £3.50 for an individual and £6.50 for a pair.
This allows us to pay land access at £1.00 per head, maps, toilets, medals and all the other associated costs. We have had some help from BOF re cost of medals and trophies, but this is no longer available.
The event this year has been profitable but for the past 4 years it has been teetering on the break even.
The schools are already asking about next year. A situation that at present is subject to embargo possibilities. I heard teachers saying that they ask for a contribution from parents and the school pays the balance. I think most rely on parental taxi's as the schools don't have mini busses as they are small rural schools. I was a little concerned as to whether this charge might be a deterrent but our entry numbers have stayed fairly constant. I would not want to increase this charge any further.
I think even a £1.95 per head levy would mean that the event would not be viable and therefore participation numbers of circa 200 would be lost. Small fish maybe but if school kids don't get the experience of an O competition where do we get junior competitors to bolster the flailing numbers on all junior courses.

[HOCOLITE]

If a member uses a proxy vote then can they submit options for each proposal?

This issue seems to be far too complicated for AGM voting. There should be one proposal with Yes or No not a series of proposals related to the outcome of previos proposals.

In 2008 the levy was 25p per junior after first £50. IE you needed 200 juniors at a junior only event before levy was due.

So even the lowly £1.95 is a rise well beyond the inflation that even our Government can create

[RJ]

There really is such a difference between an event that has a large proportion of juniors probably from the mainstream 'O' population and an event that is part of a development programme that has a large number of juniors most, if not all, of whom are 'without' the 'O' fraternity.

The levy proposals do not differentiate between the two situations and Spookster's and graeme's thinking does not appear to appreciate that.

I have no problem with paying levy on a series of events that are aimed at juniors within orienteering and will have predominantly 'O' family children. School's events that are aimed at children who have never done the sport before should not be taxed just because they reach this critical number for levy.

Insist that we have to pay this £333 and the events won't happen. BOF doesn't get the levy, we don't have the hassle, the kids don't orienteer, and the sport doesn't grow. Simple!

[Snail]

Insist that we have to pay this £333 and the events won't happen.

Why can't you just put the entry fee up by 16p? Or even 20p and make a surplus

Anyone outside the sport reading this would think that WCOC are the only club doing junior development, and are somehow a "special case". On the contrary there are many other clubs putting on O for schools. And often - because they let adults run as well - paying levy for every participant - junior and senior. We've probably had 1000+ schoolchildren - some new, some returners - every year for 20+ years.

[graeme]

I was a little concerned as to whether this charge might be a deterrent but our entry numbers have stayed fairly constant. I would not want to increase this charge any further.
I think even a £1.95 per head levy would mean that the event would not be viable and therefore participation numbers of circa 200 would be lost.

It won't. There's never been any evidence that this level of pricing makes a difference*. Not in orienteering. Not in running. Not in any sport I ever heard of. It gives grumpy people plenty to complain about, and that gives organisers stuff to worry about, but in the end a small price increase makes no difference provided you're providing a good experience, as I'm sure you are.

Indeed, in another club long ago, we found quite the opposite: the more you charge the more newcomers come, because they take the price as a proxy for the quality they'll get.

Now you might think you could do more useful stuff with the £1.95 than BOF will, but that's another story entirely.

* Caveat - if you can do it for free, that does sometimes to make a difference, although your experience suggests otherwise.

[distracted]

Sounds like whatever British Orienteering decide to do, whatever matter is concerned, RJ won't like it. I'm now waiting for his announcement of the creation of the "Cumbrian Orienteering Federation" with himself as chairman, a body that just does what he wants. Of course, such a body wouldn't need any funding whatsoever. And I wonder for how long the "my opinion = everyone else's view on the matter" would be true...


The general opinion is that volunteers within the sport are overloaded and we need to make processes as simple as possible. So that's why we're burdening Junior Competitions Group with a load of decisions on this when they could be better using their time otherwise... I was disappointed, but not surprised to see in the Annual Report that checks had shown some clubs were dishonest in their reporting of participation numbers and hence avoiding full levy payments. Using last year's figures, we're paying on average 70p per run on levy to keep the national federation running.

But I guess some think that's too much and BOF aren't worth it -- I'm already looking forward to their reaction in 2013 should the Sports Council funding dry up... and any bright ideas they have to raise some more money.

[pete.owens]

I think the proposals get the balance just about right (so long as BOTH 5 and 6 are passed)

We were very concerned last year that our schools league would become unviable (We allow adults to compete, but a large majority of entrants are juniors - and the levy was higher than our entry fee). Like other clubs we negotiated an exemption for these events, but the fact that so many exemptions had to be negotiated suggested that the system wasn't fit for purpose. Far better to treat all juniors competing at an orienteering event equally, whatever the precise status of the event as a 'junior competition'.

[SeanC]

RJ is getting a bit of a hard time here, but it's funny I pay no levy at most of the events I go to. This is because I generally go to the 20-70 person local event. I wonder why I should be exempt and not these Cumbrian schoolchildren? Looking at the trends in the annual report there are more and more of these local events so there is more and more potential unclaimed taxes. It would be an unpopular sell, but less so if the extra money was to be put to good use, for example when a local series is set up, especially by a small club with limited reserves, money and help is useful to buy equipment, do mapping, pay for publicity etc...

These comments may not make me popular at the last two Kent Night Cup events, fortunately I can't make them anyway.

[frog]

I'm helping at a school's event tomorrow morning. We have 106 teams entered. I don't really see any reason that BOF should get any money from this. I see it as completely different to normal orienteering events and more of a chance to introduce kids to the sport rather than use them to pay for elite training programmes.
OK we'll be using BOF insurance (I presume, I've not done the red tape on this one) but the chance of the insurance being needed is pretty minimal compared to night events on snowy Edinburgh hills or a SOL in a standard Scottish forest where people start getting tired and falling over.

[SYO Member]

Frog, not specifically disagreeing with your first paragraph, but re. BOF insurance, it mainly covers third parties and doesn't include personal injuries to orienteers.

Is your event on school grounds and if so, does the education authority have insurance for damage to school property when sporting activity is taking place?