Scottish Sprint

[andy]

Eddie, I wasn't there, but the map on RouteGadget definitely has blackened dark green hedges, distinct from the "normal" (100%) dark green.

KB.JPG

the discussion is that the green to the south of that map extract (link didn't work in quote, see Scott's post) had 'forbidden' next to it on the legend, everyone is in agreement that this should not have been forbidden (even the planner). There are 2 choices with this patch of 'green', either it stays as it is and you are allowed to cross / enter it OR it is remapped to 'olive green' and it is therefore forbidden.

adding some text (as someone suggested) to the final details saying that it is indeed forbidden is not the way forward, the map should always be correct. The colours on the map should always be true to the ISSOM standards. If the planner / controller deem that this might require clarification in the final details then so be it, but they should not deviate from the standard. Clarification along the lines of 'it can be hard to tell, so take care'. Or as someone stated above with regard to newcastle last year that there wasn't any of a certain type of colour then something saying this would be fine, I'm just saying that ALL the information should be on the map, correct and to the standard.

I've never really had a problem with differentiating colours, but then I'm 27 and other than short-sightedness don't have any problem. I think having a (correct!) legend would be a good way forward, to serve as a point of reference for those who might not be able to tell them apart so easily.

[Scott]

There are 2 choices with this patch of 'green', either it stays as it is and you are allowed to cross / enter it OR it is remapped to 'olive green' and it is therefore forbidden.

Surely, if it is "an area of dense vegetation" and you do want to forbid people to cross it, the correct thing to do is to remap to blackened green (421) rather than olive green (528.1)? Unless the areas of "normal" dark green on that map were actually flower beds rather than hedges/bushes?

[Spookster]

Some (but not all) people seem to be confused about the greens, so here they are:
http://www.maprunner.co.uk/simon/sprintmapsymbols.jpg
Three different greens, a black/green, and olive.

All four greens were on the KB map, and so was olive. The only usage of the black/green was for hedges, as Scott has pointed out.

The only mistake therefore was that on the legend the 100% green was described as forbidden, when it was not intended to be so.

[andy]

There are 2 choices with this patch of 'green', either it stays as it is and you are allowed to cross / enter it OR it is remapped to 'olive green' and it is therefore forbidden.

Surely, if it is "an area of dense vegetation" and you do want to forbid people to cross it, the correct thing to do is to remap to blackened green (421) rather than olive green (528.1)? Unless the areas of "normal" dark green on that map were actually flower beds rather than hedges/bushes?

well, yes, either way really. the only reason I'm stating olive green was that the section of 'dark green' (confused yet?) I crossed on Saturday was in fact very very runnable and would have been olive green had it been forbidden. (SW of number 3 on course 1)
I can't remember what the bit you linked the picture of looks like, but a lot of the green was fairly runnable.
this is thicker than the bit at number 3 (the linked pic is the start triangle)

[andy]

The only mistake therefore was that on the legend the 100% green was described as forbidden, when it was not intended to be so.

Yes, but we're discussing what should have been done had those bits actually been forbidden...

[Scott]

Yeah, I think I'd be happy with that kind of stuff mapped as either olive green or blackened green (so long as the mapper were consistent).

As an aside, not having seen a printed copy of the map - in the RouteGadget jpeg, the colouration of the blackened green hedges is very distinct from the normal 100% green. Was it that clear on the printed map? I've run on ISSOM maps in the past where the 100% green has been so dark as to make the two barely distinguishable, and I think this contributes to the confusion for a lot of people.

[graeme]

Just to lob in a few facts... The final details said...

Flower beds are out of bounds where they are mapped using the olive green symbol.
Vegetation is mapped using three shades of green - there is no "white" or "undergrowth stripes". In general the light green is runnable, other shades of green are slower than going round the paths.

Which could have been paraphrased "it's ISSOM, follow the rules", but I think many people still don't know the symbols (not that they read the details either, and absolutely nobody claimed to have read the legend during the race!).

Bottom line: if you didn't bother to read the details, fine, but don't then bleat about losing time by running round bits that are mapped as ISSOM-crossible.

Regarding dark greens: on all the maps I laserprinted to test-run they are indistinguishable. On the competition maps from StirlingSurveys they are clearly distinct.

I still think that olive green is a really poor choice of colour for forbidden access.

[awk]

It was a great event - absolutely what is wanted from a championship sprint.

With one exception.....But what is the point of travelling if there qppear to be just 2 titles at stake. If you can't run like Ali, Murray, Scott etc. how is a typical M50 going to be encouraged to travel next year (if its notlocal and the same vague format)?

It's a funny old world - OH and I are exactly the opposite. We will make a big effort to get to sprints etc. when there are few classes and we're all racing against each other; we're not bothered for those with loads of classes. Thus, we've been to the British Elite Champs for the past 5 years or so, but haven't made the effort to go to the British Age Class Sprints either year as the format simply doesn't appeal, and were both really gutted at the merging of the two events. (We'd have been up for the weekend but for hacking coughs and colds).

[awk]

I still think that olive green is a really poor choice of colour for forbidden access.

Out of mapping interest - why? That's one shade of green I've never had a problem with.

[Snail]

I will make a big effort to get to sprints etc. when there are few classes and we're all racing against each other

I'm not sure why the number of classes matters. At this event I think there were only 3 courses, so most people were racing against each other, irrespective of which class they were in.

But it would also have been relatively straightforward to award class based 'titles' to satisfy Eddie and others who want them.

[greywolf]

But it would also have been relatively straightforward to award class based 'titles' to satisfy Eddie and others who want them.

...or just to meet the rules of the competition: Sarah & Ben were identified as Scottish W/M40+ champions on the SOA website a few days after the event, but there was no recognition of this on the day...

[EddieH]

[quote]Sarah & Ben were identified as Scottish W/M40+ champions on the SOA website a few days after the event, but there was no recognition of this on the day...[/quote]

No doubt because the organisers had no idea. Even if they had they definitely had not considered it.

AWK I agree that it is nice to have courses with big fields, but why does that preclude acknowledging champions. I accept that up to 40 or so it is possible to be very competitive with the elite, but as the years pass the difference that 5 years makes increases. I am not asking for prizes or trophies - simply title acknowledgement. I fail to see why people feel so strongly against this.

[awk]

I am not asking for prizes or trophies - simply title acknowledgement. I fail to see why people feel so strongly against this.

I'm not against it - I'm just not bothered unless the fields are sufficiently big and there's enough similar standard competition around me. Faced with a choice of a set of results with a few M50s (my class) listed, or one with everybody included, I'd rather go for the latter. I can then do what comparing I want.

Greywolf - to some extent you're right, I should have said courses rather than classes. However, when we get to the standard sprint format of qualifier and final, it gets difficult to award classes on same courses, as discussed here previously. Personally, I'd rather not bother distinguishing, but simply run against people of same standard. The C final (which I was in) at last year's British Elite Sprints gave me probably the best race I've had in years because we were all, from a wide variety of age classes, of a very similar standard. The Age Class champs format is of relatively limited interest to me, even with a lot of my age class present.

At a single race event, probably doesn't matter. But I prefer results to be listed by course in that instance.

[andypat]

Eddie, I wasn't there, but the map on RouteGadget definitely has blackened dark green hedges, distinct from the "normal" (100%) dark green.

KB.JPG

What he said!

[andy]

and absolutely nobody claimed to have read the legend during the race!).

I know someone who did, and would have been first in their age class if they had gone through it rather than going round!

the greens are very easily distinguishable on the real map