4 Levels

[NeilC]

If you look a little closer at the advertising that is done by clubs it is quite obvious that there are FOUR levels at which they advertise.

I reckon that there are probably three levels of event that clubs put on as local events from the well organised leagues to the back of an envelope maps and upside cups or bits of tape as control sites. The differences between these are as great as the differences between the old district and regional events. So defining events just by what the competitor would expect to see would probably mean about 8 levels?

[Clive Coles]

Yes I have now found your reference in the appendix Spookster.

What i also found in those minutes however, under 9.5 Fixtures group, was :-

Regional events are now being scheduled through FG. FG is now working the agreed arrangement of 12 months ring fencing of Regional events and 12 months rolling
additions. This is working

Clearly the Fixtures Group still thought back then they are scheduling the level 2 timetable.

The Association Fixtures Secretaries don't appear to have been informed they can now authorise regional events on the Fixtures registration system. Has the fixtures computer system been changed ?

This has turned into a pantomime [oh no it isn't .... oh yes it is ]

Come on ~ someone needs to get a grip on what has been changed and what should be happening.

[RJ]

Indeed! Marketing and advertising is really what it is all about. But both marketing and advertising need a structure to define what it is that is being marketed. You can't just say it is an event, come along and have a race. All sports have levels of event. I don't see why you have your eyes closed to that. There are FOUR natural levels to the structure.

In fact two years ago there was such a structure and it was working fine...... well there was the niggle of age classes and that not working. OK.... now solved, with colour coded courses. That should have been that. Age classes weren't working because of the numbers in each of the competitive classes that you found yourself. This wasn't the fault of the system..... it was because the sport has shrunk in size and there just weren't the competitors out there to give realistic competition. Give it time.... and numbers will return, and then we can return to real age class competition again (I wish!).

However, what happened..... the review group recognised the problem..... but took a sledge hammer to it. Now the squashed and unrecognisable mess is not serving anyone and there are a lot of people who don't like the look of this mess and want it reinstated. Lets hope it's not Humpty Dumpty!!

[Neil M40]

Out of the LOC Pike o'Blisco "regional" event and the LOC Ulpha Cumbria Galoppen, which offers the best orienteering experience? Why is Pike o'Blisco deemed to be better?

At both events you can expect electronic punching, pre-marked maps, a choice of colour coded courses, organised parking and toilets, and BOF guidelines to be followed. Pike o'Blisco is not a higher level of event, just a different (bigger) format. In fact, from my own point of view, the potential competition is diluted across more courses.

[RJ]

But LOC have decided that that is the way they wish to treat the events. Are you now saying, Neil M40, that they are wrong and should be doing something else?

[Mrs H]

No Roger - Neil isn't saying that LOC is wrong he is asking why they have taken the decision - they did have a reason didn't they or was it done on the flip of a coin?

[seabird]

Thanks for the info on Ilkley. At the Northern Champs SYO made a £230[ surplus (I don't call it profit, because I'm not paying it out to shareholders!), and paid a levy to BOF of around £1540. But I'm not "galled" by it, because I know about all the good things that have (and are) happening with it at BOF.

Yes you're right.

I got rather sidetracked by my own calculations. Set off with the goal of demonstrating that a quality event does not need to have high entry fees. Not to have a go at BOF.

As a club we made the decision of low fees, as we had no need to raise extra funds. So although my naivety resulted in my being surprised by the comparison of the surplus relative to the BOF levy - in reality as a club we achieved our goal. So we can have no complaints.

Being "sightly galled" was an instinctive and ill-considered emotive reaction.

[awk]

There are FOUR natural levels to the structure.

Err no, there aren't, as has time after time been indicated here. You might have identified four levels in your area (and I don't think it's any coincidence that all of the proposers for the 4-tier structure are from the same area), but others will identify different natural levels in there. Indeed, quite a few of those supporting the four tier scheme have shown in their support that they believe in different sets criteria for those levels! Four levels perhaps, but different levels (and some of them will get a shock if the 4-tier scheme is passed, because they won't be getting what they think they voted for).

There are, in fact, no natural levels for the whole country - every club/region etc has different views on the number of levels that they want to promote at. So whilst the 4-tier scheme might suit NWOA (and only some of those), it will not suit other parts of the country.

However, from a NGB point of view, there are 3 natural levels for event management: club, association and national, and that is what the structure is about. How you sell those events in different parts of the country is up to you - but there are definitely no universally natural levels, which is why the event review group, with a national overview and viewpoints from many different geographical and organisational perspectives, came to the conclusion it did.

Now the squashed and unrecognisable mess is not serving anyone .

Complete twaddle. It may not be serving you, I accept that, but as demonstrated here many others of us have got on, and in spite of the mess of the introduction, are now making it work very happily thank you.

[The Loofa]

Yes I have now found your reference in the appendix Spookster.

What i also found in those minutes however, under 9.5 Fixtures group, was :-

Regional events are now being scheduled through FG. FG is now working the agreed arrangement of 12 months ring fencing of Regional events and 12 months rolling
additions. This is working

Clearly the Fixtures Group still thought back then they are scheduling the level 2 timetable.

The Association Fixtures Secretaries don't appear to have been informed they can now authorise regional events on the Fixtures registration system. Has the fixtures computer system been changed ?

Yes Clive I found that bit too while looking for the line of Spookster's
So we have 2 items taken from the same set of minutes that appear to be in direct contradiction to each other.
I think the quote you found is the one that prevails - judging by the procedure that was involved in getting London City Race re-listed as an L2

[The Loofa]

Somewhere way back in the murky depths of this thread someone listed 4 levels of fixtures organisation. It struck me as correct and I'll repeat it using letters not numbers.

Category A. Events of national importance, expected to attract runners from across the country. Initiated nationally and then in conjuction with regions. Needs national co-ordination

B. Events initiated by clubs/regions aimed at attracting a significant proportion of its runners from outside the region. Needs co-ordination between some regional fixtures secretaries but maybe not nationally.

C. Events initiated by clubs aimed at attracting runners from within their region but of limited/no interest beyond. Needs co-ordination between club fixtures secretaries.

D. Events initiated by clubs aimed at attracting runners from within that club's catchment area but of limited/no interest beyond. Needs no co-ordination.

Now 4 levels of fixtures co-ordination does not mean 4 levels of event in the way you've all been talking about it. For example, the Scots reading this may look at their SOL programme and decide its in category C. However an event of similiar prestige to a SOL if held anywhere in England (bar a few extremities) is definitely category B.

The more I read in this thread the more I'm getting the idea that we shouldn't have levels at all (except for the above fixtures co-ordination processes). Distracted came up with all the right reasons earlier today. I do a few triathlons and that sport doesn't have any system of levels - doesn't seem to do them any harm.

[Neil M40]

But LOC have decided that that is the way they wish to treat the events. Are you now saying, Neil M40, that they are wrong and should be doing something else?

No, nothing of the sort. I can't see how you came to that conclusion from what I said. LOC can put on whatever events they like in whatever format they like and call them whatever levels they like. What I am saying is that having an event in a different format does not necessarily make it better.

[Clive Coles]

Yes Clive I found that bit too while looking for the line of Spookster's
So we have 2 items taken from the same set of minutes that appear to be in direct contradiction to each other.

Can anyone who attended the Events committee provide any guidance as to what is going on

I hope an announcement is not being delayed until after the voting papers go out. A lot of us need to know before we cast our proxy vote.

[distracted]

Clive brings up the voting issue. As has already been mentioned, a vote in favour of a 4-level structure over a 3-level structure could cause even more volunteer effort to be used up, perhaps unnecessarily. So I would argue that the key question everyone should be considering when they vote is:

Do 4 levels offer any/a significant advantage over the new 3-level structure?

If the answer to the above is "no" or "not really" then why vote in favour of 4 levels? Even more upheaval and the events themselves aren't actually changing in any way.

If your answer to the above is "yes" - then let us know on here - what is/are the advantage/s? I'm sure we'd all be interested to know.

[Ed]

Pike o'Blisco is not a higher level of event...

With the area going over 2300', it looks pretty high-level to me. Any higher orienteering events in the UK this year?

[Clive Coles]

Yes Distracted.

Looking back to the beginning of this thread i realised i have shifted my position. These posts have actually helped me rationalise the situation.

I started firmly in the 4-tier camp ~ I wanted to retain the so-called quality events in a separate category. Back then I was using terms such as "keeping regional events that little bit special".

After a few exchanges, especially with AUK, I find I now understand what the new structure is able to support. I am not far from changing my voting intention.

Both AUK and myself seem to be wanting our main Sunday morning event programme to be planned, supervised and authorised by the Regional Associations in conjunction of course with the clubs. BOF have a need to plan, control and supervise the big National scene ~ they don't need to get involved with routine Sunday morning fixture planning.

I am still supporting the 4 tier camp because I believe this gives the flexibility to code the big regional events so that they can be identified as needing to be scheduled as a national status event.

By so doing this means we could administer a 4-tier structure within the current working practices set out in the Fixtures Group Working Arrangements and (with a little modification) with the Fixtures computer system as currrently installed.

Something obviously went on at the last Events committee meeting ~ the published minutes give conflicting messages. Once someone clears up this mis-communication and confirms how level 2 regional events are to be authorised I may change my voting intentions. If the processes are being changed to permit Association Fixture secretaries to authorise Regional events that goes some considerable way to resolving my concerns.

What I cannot support is a 3-tier system where all level 2 events have to be authorised through the National fixtures group. That I believe why many clubs have left their old District events where BOF dumped them ~ as level 3 "local" events.

But, In the absence of clarity being given before the proxy voting papers are distributed i am still likely to vote in favour of 4 tiers. i guess BOF have about 2 weeks to come clean over what is going on behind the scenes