ranking list

[Gnitworp]

If comparisons are made with standard daylight 'forest' (for want of a better term) events, I think more different people prevail at night than in 'urban' events. Night technique needs more careful navigation (pacing, accurate bearings etc). Direct route risks appropriate in daylight are less likely to succeed at night and many very successful daylight orienteers do not modify their approach accordingly.

[DeerTick]

Currently listening to Jefferson Airplane, so that gives you a clue to my age.

Night O : too dependent on your kit. My headtorch just suffices to let me see the white line on the road (when I have to).

Urban : the roadrunner's dream ! (I was one).

For me orienteering is forest/moor and daylight.

DT

[Mrs H]

Here we go again

Why do people think that the ranking list should automatically perform all these specific functions. A combined list is exactly that - by all means filter out everyone you find a threat to your standing - ultimately you will get to the top. But just like the people who want 4 tiers to denote quality - the answer is in your own hands - establish a league

Urban racers are probably far more interested in doing well in the nopesport urban league/Yorkshire league and if I have my way more urban leagues, than how they are placed in the rankings - and we never have to worry about whether all our mates are going to be there.

Competition to be included in the league will also ensure a better quality event.

But please stop bleating about "proper orienteering" - that way the whole sport will be up for one of Darwin's awards

[harry]

well i'm a fan. i was the 85th best female in the Uk the other week and now i'm the 8th best, it's interesting when you can improve so much without doing anything

[Darwin]

But please stop bleating about "proper orienteering" - that way the whole sport will be up for one of Darwin's awards

I disagree. I think it is dilution of the essence of the sport which will lead to it's demise.

The sight of bizzarely garbed middle-aged orienteers sweating round your local shopping centre won't help either)

At a time when adventure racing, downhill MTB racing,"tough guy challenges", fell racing and mountain marathons are growing like crazy, (tried entering a major fell race recently?), surely we should be tapping into the growth offered by emphasising the adventurous aspects of orienteering - that's where the demand is.

[Mrs H]

I haven't noticed the "So you think you're hard enough" brigade having any measurable success over recent years - although if the sport had not so thoroughly missed the Adventure Racing boat some time back it might have been a different story. No doubt it was the purists who let that opportunity slip too!

But let's hear your ideas Darwin for persuading these people to come orienteering.

[EddieH]

I'd love to know if you've tried it Darwin. Are you speaking from personal experience or just from your belief system?

I felt just as you do before I tried it. Also I am a slow runner (particularly on fast surfaces|*) yet I do no worse than in conventional O. Indeed one of my top scores was the JK sprint.

* That is: my terrain running is infinitely stronger than my track speed capability

[SeanC]

I suspect some (like Darwin?) fear that variants on classic orienteering (such as urban orienteering, sprint, trail challenges, night etc) reduce the time and effort put into classic cross country orienteering leading to a weaker core for the sport.

I think these fears are misplaced. My feeling is that more variety = more routes into classic orienteering and more traditional orienteers. The classic district event tries to appeal to many markets by offering a runners course (ie. red, or whatever it is now) and courses for younger children (white, yellow etc) as well as the TD4/5 classic orienteering courses. But it's hard to meet all markets in a one size fits all event. Areas get chosen for their TD4/5 orienteering potential and this might not suit runners (being a long way from where they live) or families with young children (who might prefer an easier country park area with less getting lost risk, good parking and something to do afterwards etc). The niche events can be marketed effectively to different groups. SLOW's trail challenge events are a good example, basically a long red - but it's not marketed as orienteering and they choose good areas for running and in populated areas. In Kent we find the night events are popular with adventure racers - even though we don't really push it to them. Urban orienteering has all the ingredients for being popular with runners too - maybe the maps are a bit complicated though.

A minority of newcomers from these niche events will filter though to classic orienteering in good time, but will have less of an offputting learning curve when they get there.

[Gnitworp]

Also I am a slow runner (particularly on fast surfaces|*) yet I do no worse than in conventional O. Indeed one of my top scores was the JK sprint.

* That is: my terrain running is infinitely stronger than my track speed capability

As is, I suspect, your ability to keep running without having to stop or slow down frequently to scrutinise the map; the source of your sprint O success, it being possibly a more critical element than in Classic/Long O. I'm reigning M60 British Sprint O Champion and also a very slow track/road runner.

[Darwin]

Yes, fair points all. I have done some urban orienteering and it just didn't grab me I guess. I also got disillusioned with the mass cheating I witnessed.

We can certainly market the adventure side of orienteering more - and there is much we can learn from the rapidly growing outdoor sports here. It's all about image - sure, we all know that already - but it's nothing that a clever marketeer couldn't tackle.

However, I accept that this doesn't have to preclude development of other formats such as urban.

The original point was about the ranking sytem and just to circle back - it still seems strange to me that ranking points were available last weekend for a quick sprint round the streets of Carlisle on Saturday and absolutely none for a tough, highly technical event in superb terrain - the Blodslitet on the Sunday.

[IanD]

I also got disillusioned with the mass cheating I witnessed.

Can't comment on the Zermatt event where you allege mass cheating as I wasn't there. However I can truthfully say that the worst mass cheating I have personally witnessed - people waiting at controls not on their course to look at the maps of people arriving - has occurred at the Swedish O-Ringen - very much a forest event.

I personally don't think that deliberate cheating is any more prevalent at urban events, and even if it were, I would suggest trying to find ways of detecting and penalising culprits would be a more appropriate response than excluding from the rankings.

[Spookster]

it still seems strange to me that ranking points were available last weekend for a quick sprint round the streets of Carlisle on Saturday and absolutely none for a tough, highly technical event in superb terrain - the Blodslitet on the Sunday.

Actually nobody got points for Carlisle, because it wasn't a level 2 Regional Event (though it should have been, in my view).

The Blodslitet was a mass start, and therefore automatically excluded from being eligible for ranking points. Though to be honest, I spent 10 minutes with the pack at the start, and then 2 hours 40 running on my own, so not really a pack race for me!

[andy]

quick sprint round the streets of Carlisle on Saturday

I don't rate a 48min 10km+ run, a 'sprint', do you?

Perhaps this 'cheating' people speak of in urban races isn't exactly cheating but an ignorance of the rules attached to these events, without reading up on it beforehand how am I meant to know I can't cross the thick black line? But look, it's a 2 foot wall in reality?!?

absolutely none for a tough, highly technical event in superb terrain - the Blodslitet on the Sunday.

which was a mass start and basically a cross country race? (to be honest I don't know the exact format but if a good runner had turned up who couldn't navigate could they have tagged on to oli/oleg and pipped them to the line)
It looked like an awesome race, but hardly able to be used for o rankings.

[andypat]

If comparisons are made with standard daylight 'forest' (for want of a better term) events, I think more different people prevail at night than in 'urban' events. Night technique needs more careful navigation (pacing, accurate bearings etc). Direct route risks appropriate in daylight are less likely to succeed at night and many very successful daylight orienteers do not modify their approach accordingly.

exactly - and who's to say what's right? A good orienteer should be able to transfer their skills to whatever the terrain or visibility demands.

One of my favourite navigational successes was a long contour round a mountainside in thick fog to hit a control in the LAMM a few years back.

[Mrs H]

Just out of interest Spookster - and anyone else who did the double last weekend - which event did you enjoy the most?