4 Levels

[pete.owens]

The Cumbrian Galoppen series of events are not regional, L2, events.

But there is absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be.
They are well organised, good quality events that meet all the requirements in the guidelines and they are exactly the sort of event that L2 was designed to encompass.

Certainly from the perspective of a competitor from the other end of the NW region under the old system it was far more worthwhile to travel to a C4 event in the Lakes than a C3 trudging across a featureless heather moor in the South Pennines.

They are District events in the previous system. They fit very neatly into that category.

Just as they now fit neatly into L2

[pete.owens]

I really can't see why we have had to put up with all this endless rebranding. It hasn't made it easier for newcomers to understand the structure of our competitions and it has baffled and alienated a lot of experienced orienteers. It's pretty clear to me that the following types of event exist, as they have done since I started orienteering too many years ago*:

As one who started orienteering not so many years ago I can certainly remember being baffled and confused by the old event structure (though I didn't realise that it had anything to do with the event structure at the time)

The first event our family went to in the local forest we went to enquiries and asked what would be the appropriate course for the children (aged about 6 & 7) for their first try. We were handed a leaflet explaining colour coded courses (which seemed very straight forward), hired some dibbers and shadowed them round the white course. When we got back and tried to work out what courses were available for grown ups we were faced with what looked like hundreds of postcodes to choose from. Another visit to the enquiries tent and I worked out that my age class was M40, but since they had run out of maps for M40s I had to enter M35L (I think the family was waiting quite some time for me to get back).

The next event the registration was much more straight forward - it turned out that there were colour coded courses for adults as well as children so we could all choose how far we wanted to run. The downside was that we discovered that the most essential items of O-kit were not compass or studded shoes, but a shed load of safety pins and a red pen.

Most events seemed to be of the second sort, and we soon got the hang of turning up for the earliest possible registration to sort out the logistics of collecting 4 maps, description sheets, control cards, copying down the map corrections 4 times and the yellow course twice, pinning everything to the relevant persons clothe, shaddowing the children round their courses, and then taking it in turns to run our courses - inevitably resulting in the start team having to scribble out the start time written on my control card. at the finish they always seemed to know me by name!

So it seemed that events came in two sorts:
TYPE A was easy to understand, but a right faff to compete in with all the bits of paper to keep track of, and trying to make red pens work on damp paper.
TYPE B was more complicated to enter, and I was restricted to running longer courses the I would have preferred (at least to start with) - but once you had entered it was all more straight forward to compete. the map was sealed in a nice poly bag with the course neatly printed with all the circles in the correct position.

Another confusion came when the children had a new set of postcode courses at TYPE B events.

After a few years we asked someone what this "jaykay" thing was that seemed to crop up in conversations, so we went along to see what it was all about - as we approached the field we could see what looked like a medieval encampment, with flags and tents and traders and a PA system and a taped runin with spectators. Plus yet another set of post code courses for the children. Clearly time to add TYPE C to my personal orienteering event taxonomy.

Shortly after that the younger of the children started to ask if he could go to a "national event" in order to get a "championship badge", but on asking someone in the club it turned out that there weren't any more of them scheduled for that year. I had assumed that these would be TYPE C events, but when we did eventually get to go to one it turned out to be another TYPE B.

As time progressed many TYPE A events became more and more like TYPE B until the only difference was whether the courses were labelled by postcodes or by colours.

[awk]

Hi Pete
Interesting set of posts - wonderful dissection, followed by a great description - not untypical of experience from people coming in to sport from feedback I've had.

[NeilC]

Our dialogue has therefore really been all about the 90% bulge in the middle

Where did you get this figure of 90% from? In my region the majority of events are true two-person-and-their-dog-type events.

If the motion is passed it will cause work for BOF and a number of committees.

I'm hoping that if the motion gets passed then the NW four will be asked to form a working group to clearly define the different levels and to write the appropriate guidelines. That way there will be little extra work for the BOF committees/groups and whatever the result at least everyone will know who made the decisions.

[RJ]

The Cumbrian Galoppen series of events are not regional, L2, events.
They are District events in the previous system. They fit very neatly into that category.

Just as they now fit neatly into L2

No they aren't.... they are level 3 events in the previous four level system. When we stage a L2 event even on the same area it is a different animal. When you have had a bit more experience of your Type A,B,C events you will see what I mean.

As I said in an earlier post, this could possibly be where the area/event is used for the Northern Champs add-on to the competition. An L2 event, not L1. That will be why the Northern Champs this weekend, run by SYO, is an L2!

IMO NWOA have never had any problem in being able to differentiate between these L2 and L3 events, and opposition (from the start???) has been based on a clear understanding of the differences and not on a 'mantra' that changes were wrong.

We are merely defending what we passionately feel is about to be lost; doing exactly what the event review would have regions do..... take charge of their event structure and create something that works for them

[RJ]

If the motion is passed it will cause work for BOF and a number of committees.

I'm hoping that if the motion gets passed then the NW four will be asked to form a working group to clearly define the different levels and to write the appropriate guidelines. That way there will be little extra work for the BOF committees/groups and whatever the result at least everyone will know who made the decisions.

I understand that the proposal for the AGM will have supporting material which will clearly set out those guidelines. The only real change in the structure is the provision of colour coded courses at L2. That work has all been done.

Other people can decide how ranking qualification fits with the L2/L3 events. And anyway, why are we allowing the ranking system to dictate the structure.

[Mrs H]

surely the "supporting material" needs to be in the public domain before the agm so that the voting public, particularly those voting by proxy, can make a properly informed decision? Otherwise as has already been said - people may not realise what they are voting for. If the only real change is the provision f colour coded courses at L@ then where is the change? they are already in place - or are you talking about the previous structure - it's not clear to me - let us see these proposed guidelines.

[RJ]

..... in the publication pipeline......

All AGM items have to be published with the AGM notification/documents.

[distracted]

I'm hoping that if the motion gets passed then the NW four will be asked to form a working group to clearly define the different levels and to write the appropriate guidelines. That way there will be little extra work for the BOF committees/groups and whatever the result at least everyone will know who made the decisions.

That sounds like a fantastic idea - I presume they will also be responsible for the roll-out of said "event" (really competition) structure, programming the necessary changes to the new fixtures display/registration and results/rankings systems on the British Orienteering website, altering the necessary event rules, sorting out how the various incentive schemes fit and marketing the whole thing.

Oh, and dealing with all of those people who don't understand why yet another change has been made because "we haven't been told about it."

[greywolf]

That will be why the Northern Champs this weekend, run by SYO, is an L2!

Really? So why does the BOF fixtures list have it as a National, i.e. L1 event then?

[distracted]

RJ - what you're repeatedly saying has got me interested.

If someone were to turn up to a Cumbrian Galoppen event and one of your 'different beast' regional events on the same area, what differences in event would they experience?

[Spookster]

That will be why the Northern Champs this weekend, run by SYO, is an L2!

Really? So why does the BOF fixtures list have it as a National, i.e. L1 event then?

The Northern Champs (which is one of the new Area Champs competitions) is quite certainly a Level 1! And very clearly advertised as such on the web page I created:
http://www.southyorkshireorienteers.org.uk/northern-champs-2010.html

Closing date for entries is today.

[mike g]

It would be interesting to know why London is registered as level 3.

From our fixtures secretary's report for tonight's committee meeting:

"Listed in new fixtures structure as level 3 (which should amuse those who follow Nopesport) - my attempt to change it got bogged down in bureaucracy at national fixtures level."

[Mrs H]

I still feel it is almost impossible to carry this debate forward without seeing the details of the proposal. the letter Neil copied onto the thread repeatedly refers to "The Best" of the new level 2 events being separately classified. Definition of "the best" is something I'm looking forward to seeing. If they really are "the best" why not put them in level 1 - after all the British champs and JK hardly need a class of their own as they speak for themselves and have their own guidelines on top of any other event of level. Will these "best" events be significantly different from the regional champs which currently also occupy level 1? Should they be? After all, for people registered outside the region, a regional champs is just another guaranteed quality event - so by all means lets have more of them - include the top multi days and urban races as well - use them for selection, UK cup and FCC as well- make them really worth travelling for and not just for people who want to crank up ranking points.

then level 2 can be populated with the old colour coded and run of the mill regionals and level 3 can be the local events and anything else that doesn't fit in anywhere else.

It amuses me how the 4 level advocates have moved their goal posts away from the loss of age-class competition (because it didn't happen) to the question of event quality/cost. I suppose they feel that cost will touch more nerves.

Back to the tennis

[Gross]

Back to the tennis

Will Mr Murray be British (win) or Scottish (loose)?