4 Levels

[Scott]

but I am also bearing in mind that I won't be at the JK this year.

I don't think that makes much difference - the result of the vote will almost certainly be determined before the AGM itself.

[distracted]

For those of us who haven't seen it in situ, who is tabling said proposal?

[Mr Chips]

... What is important is that the requirements set by whatever levels we have, according to our NGB, are actually met.

Spot on. I wish I had been able to put it so succinctly.

The reason why I argue so tenaciously for 3 levels is that they show who is primarily responsible for the quality assurance.

But do you think that the regional associations have the clout to do this? It seems to me that they are weak bodies compared with the NGB and the clubs and that, de facto, it is clubs that control quality at all levels below national championship level. Events happen, by and large, because club members want to put them on - I don't think that the recent restructuring (or the one before it) has had any beneficial effect on actual event quality. So I do not see quality assurance as making a case for any particular structure.

[Scott]

For those of us who haven't seen it in situ, who is tabling said proposal?

Haven't seen the new letter yet, but the names on the various proposals I have seen so far are Mike Atherton, Sue Birkinshaw, Roger Smith and Dick Towler.

[awk]

But do you think that the regional associations have the clout to do this?

Simply, yes. Clubs can't put on Level 2 events without the agreement of their association. I agree that clubs are the driving force, but if a governing body says that certain criteria have to be met, then they have to be met, whether that governing body is national or regional. One of the reasons they may have been seen to be weak over the years, is that the NGB has centralised so much. Give ownership/power etc back to the associations, and they will be stronger.

[mharky]

That would lead to even greater inter-regional differences in event standards, as it is Scottish local events are better than english national events

[distracted]

Level 2 Events - comprising a limited number of high quality events, including the best of the traditional age-class based cross country events...

I presume, as part of the Proposal, that the proposers are going to indicate exactly how events that meet the "criteria" of this level are going to be chosen, and by whom? For some reason, I can't see this ending well in some cases - cue plenty of inter-club arguments.

Also to be noted is the phrase 'age-class' creeping in again - not surprising given that it is the same quartet who put their names to the Scottish 6-Days 'survey'...

[awk]

The creation of a separate Level ...will enable all of these, and other, problems, which didn’t exist under the old Event Structure, to be easily resolved.

[Mr Chips]

But do you think that the regional associations have the clout to do this?

Simply, yes. Clubs can't put on Level 2 events without the agreement of their association. I agree that clubs are the driving force, but if a governing body says that certain criteria have to be met, then they have to be met, ...

Clearly the XXOAs are not all equal - and probably SOA is well ahead of the rest in terms of manging its region's events - but I can't visualise any XXOA that I know of pulling the plug on an event that a club wants to run on grounds of its not meeting criteria. The regional OAs do some things well - running regional junior squads, coordinating fixtures, etc, but in my experience they don't get involved in QA or QC.
At present, QA consists of BOF laying down rules and guidelines, and providing some training for event officials. Thereafter, QC is entirely in the hands of the organising clubs and the Controllers. If you want to change this situation, fine; but there is no mechanism in place to give regional officials any say in the matter. To repeat a point: redefining the levels has had no impact on the immediate problem, but it has caused a lot of annoyance to regular orienteers and put our decision making processes under a harsh spotlight.

[EddieH]

AWK wrote [quote]Clive - you can already have what you want now. Level 1 and Level 2 stay the same. Your level 3 and 4 are subsets of the current level 3, and can be set within EAOA by the clubs co-ordinating at regional level. It doesn't need BOF to decide those for you. Go ahead, do it now!![/quote]

I'll tell you exactly why I disagree with you on this.

BOF produces the event search engine. A search on level 2 produces a sensibly sized list of upcoming events, but a search on level 3 is cluttered with scores of all sorts.

Basically if I am going to be in Birmingham on Saturday say I would do a search on level 2 and would like to do one on what I'd call level 3 events (The regional search is quite useless in this instance as my return journey might go through a number of regions).

Currently the BOF service is useless - Ollie's map gives a nice view of where the events are, but I need to highlight each event and then follow up links to see what's on offer.

I simply cannot understand why you are so adamantly against the large bulk of very limited events being placed in a lower category. After all the SOA actually removed all of these events from their main fixtures list a few years ago because they cluttered up the list.

[EddieH]

Interestingly regarding regional control, before we realsed that there would be an SOA financial penalty to hold a level 2 event we applied that our upcoming Darnaway quality event would be a level 2. This was turned down because of another scheduled event over 100 miles away.

[SJC]

Your level 3 and 4 are subsets of the current level 3, and can be set within EAOA by the clubs co-ordinating at regional level. It doesn't need BOF to decide those for you. Go ahead, do it now!!

I have to agree with Eddie. Isn't this exactly what everyone wants ?

Now, having agreed that two levels are needed within a Region, lets call them levels 3 and 4, which is just what the AGM proposal seems to be asking for.

[RJ]

Branding has been bandied about as an indicator of what the event may be from the competitor's perspective. OK.

The Cumbrian Galoppen series of events are not regional, L2, events. They are District events in the previous system. They fit very neatly into that category. They attract an audience from that 'district' with a few orienteers travelling in from elsewhere. But 90%+ of the competitors are from the 'district'. IMO we don't want to call them regional, L2 events..... the regional event is a different animal, as you well know when you come to a NWOA regional event in the Lake District.

And they certainly aren't club events, level 4..... the Cumbrian Galoppen events are level 3 events. Forget about the label, 'district', we will just use the level 3 branding. Now, if regions want to do that, what's wrong with that?

I don't mind how good a level 2 event is in EAOA. You designate it a Level 2, fine. The competitors will decide whether they will enter... and travel. If it is a Level 2 event in SOA then personally I will make the effort to travel.

[distracted]

IMO we don't want to call them regional, L2 events..... the regional event is a different animal, as you well know when you come to a NWOA regional event in the Lake District.

So the problem is simply terminology? - 'Regional Events' form a subset of 'Regional Level Events' - and you want to easily see the difference? Instead of causing a load of upheaval, why don't you guys in the NW just come up with a different name to make it obvious?

General Observations from this thread:
- The new event structure is an issue for the older, experienced orienteer from associations which didn't see anything wrong with the old competition-based system
- They could easily come up with a simple system in their own association to make their competition levels distinct
- They don't seem to think issues will be different for other people in the rest of the country, and so want to impose their issue nationally when it should be sorted closer to home.

[seabird]

It seems to me that what RJ, and others, are describing as an L2 event is an "Inter-Regional event"

Under the old system "Regional" events were very definitely that. Neighbouring Regions could not stage "Regional" events on the same day. The old Regionals were expected to attract copmetitors from neighbouring regions. They will continue to do so today if they are on the better terrain. Many old Regionals only attracted the bulk of the competitors from within their old Region.

As many have noted, the discerning orienteer who is prepared to travel , will pick events on the best terrain, whatever level you call the event. Many orienteers who still want good quality events (in terms of everything other than the crucial terrain element) will be more reluctant to travel considerable distance on a regular basis.

The new system, if I have understood it, has tried to get away from this exclusivity for this level of event so that more quality events can be staged each weekend around the country. It has also recognised that the old District events around the country provide similar facilities to the old Regional Events (possibly apart from the quality of terrain - but not always so.) Certainly the Old District Events have more in common with the old Regional Events than with what I would call a L3 event, i.e. one staged by one or two people with a very small selection of courses.

For that reason I am very happy with including in L2 every event that uses a colour coded structure with 7 or more courses. We tend to differentiate between our more prestigious events on better areas by calling them "Regional Events with a full range of courses". The smaller events, usually just lacking Short Brown, Short Blue, Short Green and often Black, are "Regional Events with a limited range of courses".

We have been conscious for a long time that there is very lttle difference in cost, sometimes none at all, in staging the various L2 events. Far from increasing the entry fees for the old "District" events which are now called Regional, we have started to reduce the cost of our most prestigious events.

The Ilkley Moor Event, with a full range of courses, is a prestigious event and at the same entry cost as one of our smaller scale Regional events.

The argument that calling an Event "Regional" puts up entry fees is just plain wrong - or certainly should be.

Entry fees should reflect the cost of staging the event, not a way of maximising profits.