4 Levels

[Clive Coles]

I am in danger of repeating arguments, but in response to Pete:

To pick an example from the fixtures list:
the "Local Colour Coded & EA League" event at Swaffam on 28th of Feb looks like the sort of thing that you would expect to see at Level 2.

The EA league was conceived as a competition, at District event level, where each club nominated one event as their league fixture for the season. It is evolving, clubs can now nominate a regional fixture if they wish ~ plans are also afoot to include a sprint race fixture in future years. But it's still on a 1 fixture per club per season basis.

We like our league fixtures to run throughout the orienteering season ( not just in January /February). For reasons I have already stated land access dictates where and when regional quality events are staged. We, and I am sure other regions,have similar challenges

Staging a regional quality event does place an additional responsibility on the hosting clubs. In this particular instance NOR are heavily involved in providing officials (and updated maps) for both the Compass Sport Cup next weekend and the Single Dumpling Regional event in Mid-February. I think it is being a little unsympathetic to expect any club to stage 3 regional events in such a short period.

They will have had their reasons for wishing to stage their Cockley Cley event under level 3 guidelines. Knowing the area and some of the planning challenges I can support that decision. Under the rules of our league they are able to nominate a colour coded fixture if they wish.

But it is not for me, any contributor to this forum or any member of a BOF working party or committee to tell any club what they should do. Clubs in East Anglia are free to run fixtures under which ever rules and guidelines they wish. EAOA is entitled to run their league without direction from the BOF Events committee.

I can see BOF have a problem. Having 90% of events categorised in level 3 is daft and unhelpful.

By relaxing the rules about what is required by a regional event i.e ~

we don't have to have pre-entry, start lists etc

we can use an experienced grade 3 controller (for next year at least)

we can use areas with more limited technical planning options

we can use older maps where the cartography has been tweeked by a succession of planners. Adequate for the competition by possibly some inconsistances across the map as to how similar areas of runability are shown.

we don't have to offer courses such as a black; short green and light green can be combined on non-technical areas

you may only get one unisex loo !

I can see that some ( or even most) old style district events could be re-registered at level 2.

But that just moves the bulge from level 3 to level 2. We will then get the critisism that quality of level 2 events is being contaminated by a second tier of events which do not match up to some peoples expections.

Sorry ... I don't like the way BOF have compromised the event guidlines. They have dug themselves a pit ~ the 4 tier proposal IMO provides a pragmatic way out.

[awk]

Clive

In one breath you say you don't want British Orienteering to dictate to you, the next you say you want them to do exactly that.

You also still appear to be mixing up the 'old' regional event with the 'new' regional event.

British Orienteering doesn't have a problem - because you will only have 90% of your events in L3 if 9 out of every 10 events is a small, locally targetted event of not more than approximately 4 courses, minimally controlled, etc. etc.

There is no danger of dilution by moving larger events than that into L2 If EAOA and the clubs do their jobs properly. The levels simply indicate the organisational structure. The quality differentiation is created locally. The system is designed to give EAOA the freedom to decide which events are the prestige events in the region, and which are the standard ones. If EAOA and its clubs decide not to do anything about that, then fine, but that is a local decision, not one to be taken by BOF. You create the quality, you create the differentiation, you decide full stop. The alternative, which is what you seem to want, is for BOF to take over. Personally, I'd rather be left to get along with it and stand on our own two feet.

[PKJ]

I am firmly in the 3 Level camp. Brand Names, Pre-entry, Regional, as against Club, Leagues, and Number of Courses available are clear ways for the punters to differentiate event status within Level 2.

Seabird was explaining how we (AIRE) differentiate between our Level 2 Regional events.
Eg: (all Level 2 Events)
Ilkley Moor (Feb), Conistone (Sept), or Dales Weekend - full range of courses, pre-entry, Grade 2 Controller from another club
Bramham Park (April) or Shipley Glen (Nov)- limited range of courses, eod, AIRE Grade 3 Controller
Also, a Level 2 Middle distance event and Level 2 Urban events in 2010.

Nothing to do with me (except as an event official), but I think it works for us. But, a 4-tier system could also work.

As some earlier contributors noted, there'll be bigger issues for orienteering to address - environmental constraints, funding...

[pete.owens]

I am in danger of repeating arguments, but in response to Pete:

To pick an example from the fixtures list:
the "Local Colour Coded & EA League" event at Swaffam on 28th of Feb looks like the sort of thing that you would expect to see at Level 2.

The EA league was conceived as a competition, at District event level, where each club nominated one event as their league fixture for the season. It is evolving, clubs can now nominate a regional fixture if they wish ~ plans are also afoot to include a sprint race fixture in future years. But it's still on a 1 fixture per club per season basis.

This implies some degree of regional cooridination and I would probably sort of minimum quality expectations. I would be surprised if the league organisers would be anticipating a club to nominate a "yellow+orange+45 minute score" wednesday evening event.

Indeed looking at the EA league rules:
http://www.eaoa.org.uk/league2009/EALrules.pdf
They seem to be expecting from "level 3" events exactly the sort of criteria that level 2 of the new event structure is intended to cover - down to suggested courses for age classes. You could almost say that the L2 of new event structure was custom made to suit the needs of the EA league.

Now of course this is entirely a matter for EA clubs to decide, but it seems a bit odd to decide to register all these events at same level as come-and-try-it-events and then blame that decision on the new event structure.

We like our league fixtures to run throughout the orienteering season ( not just in January /February).

So this implies some sort of regional coordination - again beyond the requirements for L3 events.

For reasons I have already stated land access dictates where and when regional quality events are staged. We, and I am sure other regions,have similar challenges. Staging a regional quality event does place an additional responsibility on the hosting clubs.

The event is being held anyway.
It looks superficially to have all the attributes that would be required for L2 of the new event structure. What are you suggesting is missing?

[NeilC]

By relaxing the rules about what is required by a regional event

Clive, where are these rules, to which you refer, requiring pre-entry, start lists, certain courses, loos, new map, limited terrain etc for regional events? Could you please provide a URL?

[RJ]

I've just had cause to go through the fixture list for the next several months... the same listing as get printed in CompassSport. It appears that everyone is giving their event a title and a brand..... all very colourful and attractive. But it tells you nothing about the quality or standard of the competition/event. There is no cross comparison with events elsewhere in the listing. IMO it is missmash of 'confusion'.

Come on! It just makes sense to have a basic, upper-framework to begin with. Level 2 is regional, and level 3 is District, Level 4 is club. Within that you can have all the branding you want. Level 2 events are special and attract competitors from a wider audience. Everything else has an almost totally 'local' set of competitors.

If you think that the sport is going forward with a whole set of fancy names for each and every particular event then IMO you are sorely mistaken. It is a recipe for confusion and 'zero standardisation', giving new members and the general 'O' fraternity no chance of deciding what they will actually go to next!

[Gross]

Fixtures list in Lithuania operates on a similar basis to that RJ is not happy with i.e. each event has it's own 'brand'. In LTU it's possible to be champion of something / somewhere each week.... but it works because it's established & Joe Bloggs knows what he's getting... Vilnius Champs is same weekend every year, Kaunas Champs is same weekend every year....

So once branding is established... nowt wrong with it

[SeanC]

I agree that at the former level 4 and 5 level branding each event makes less sense, but most are branded into leagues or series.

Which promotes our sport more:

"I've been to a level 4 event" or "I've been to an East Anglia League Event".

"I've run at the SOC badge event" or "I've run at the November Classic".

However, to address RJ's point I think it would help if the BOF fixtures list could be enhanced to display a definition of each brand if clicked.

Using the level description as a mechanism aimed at keen orienteers was appropriate when orienteering was a fast growing sport and too many orienteers was the problem, not too few, but IMHO this is not enough now. Now we need to open new markets. What about the majority of club members who need something more to get them into their cars? What about the occasional orienteers/non members and outdoor types our regional events could attract if marketed appropriately? I don't hear of adventure races being sold by "it's a level 2 event, so it must be great". The competition in the leisure market is much tougher than 30 years ago.

Going back to Clive's posts and using the Thetford Thrash as an example in building an attractive brand. It's a two day event with lots of possibilities for after O stuff on the saturday. Instead of a wayfarers course you could put on an adventure racing style course for young adult types who live in places like London, Cambridge. And yes, charge a bit more to pay for the publicity.

[RJ]

So how does a newcomer to the sport navigate around this little lot.
Is this really the future of the sport?
People really do need to know where to start with a list like this. Is there anything special about any of them? How do I know?

AIRE Airedale Winter Olite Series
EPOC Castle Carr Regional Event
Malvern Mini League 4
Charnwood Forest South EMOA League Event
Lizard Hill Colour Coded Event
East Yorkshire Short Race Series Round 2
Welsh Weekend - Welsh Middle Distance Championships
Park event with Chasing Sprint
POTOC Leisure and Training Event
Stapleford EMOA League
Western Night League Llangattock
RR SoSOL
Pickering Urban Sprint Event
FVO Regional Event, World Ranking Event & Scottish O League 1
Gathering Park Race
AIRE Spring Sprint League and Wednesday Evening Informal
SOLWAY Regional Event & Scottish O League 2
EUOC Burns Weekend City Race
Stafford Sprint & UK Cup Race
EBOR Prize Event
EM League
Kielder trophy
Nottingham City Street O
CLARO Regional Event
Night Owl 6
Winter series 4 of 4
Scottish Sprint Championships
OD Sat Morn Local Event
National Event & Southern Championships
LEI Winter League Local Event
YHOA Night League
EUOC FwtN 7
Robin Hood Trophy
POTOC Leisure and Training Event
JOK Burns Weekend - Chasing Sprint
Middle Distance Event

[SeanC]

First assume that our newcomer wants to travel no more than 30 miles for their first event. Enter postcode LS1 (Leeds).

which gives a list like:

AIRE Night Score League
EBOR Night Event Brayton Barff
AIRE Winter Airedale Olite Series
AIRE Night Score League
AIRE Night Score League
AIRE Night Score League
YHOA Night League - Series Finale
AIRE Airedale Winter Olite Series
EPOC Regional

The brands repeat at a local level when in a local league. Now I accept that the BOF fixture list should be improved so that when any brand name is clicked, a pop up is displayed that explains what "AIRE night score league" means (defined by AIRE) - and maybe plugs it's strong point (friendly, local, after event pub blah blah).

We're all amateur marketeers and I'm sure expert assistance could help us get better brand names, but it could be argued that these brand names are more appealing to the newcomer than:

SN5
CN4
C5
SN5
SN5
SN5
CN4
C5
C3

[distracted]

It appears that everyone is giving their event a title and a brand..... all very colourful and attractive. But it tells you nothing about the quality or standard of the competition/event. There is no cross comparison with events elsewhere in the listing.

So, RJ, let us know how putting an event in a specific level will guarantee its quality & standards across the country? It didn't work before - why should it work now?

[EddieH]

If you didn't think it worked before Distracted, then I guess you weren't around when I started and standards were wildy variable.

By imposing 3 levels, we seem to be ensuring that in Scotland at least, but I'm sure in some other regions as well that a beginner is going to see a high quality colour coded event in Culbin listed in exactly the same status list as a small training event for 6 people.

I remember when I started going to my first C5 event - a typical Saturday informal no results, no controller affair in the Forest of Dean. I learned there and then what C5 meant. If someone goes to a local event planned by an unmentored beginner that places controls in somewhat dubious or wrong places, it might make them decide not to bother with that level again.

I know BOF is not imposing the interpretation of what is a level 2 or a 3, but the way they started by moving all C4's automatically to level3, and continue by calling level 2 "regional" has been entirely unhelpful. And the fact is they have IMPOSED a 3 tier system - their whole search engine is fixed on it. I do hope they have stopped arbitrarily adding the word "local" to all level 3 fixtures "Scottish Sprint Championships Local Event"

[AndyC]

So how does a newcomer to the sport navigate around this little lot.
Is this really the future of the sport?
People really do need to know where to start with a list like this. Is there anything special about any of them? How do I know?

AIRE Airedale Winter Olite Series
EPOC Castle Carr Regional Event
Malvern Mini League 4
Charnwood Forest South EMOA League Event
Lizard Hill Colour Coded Event
East Yorkshire Short Race Series Round 2
Welsh Weekend - Welsh Middle Distance Championships
Park event with Chasing Sprint
POTOC Leisure and Training Event
Stapleford EMOA League
Western Night League Llangattock
RR SoSOL
Pickering Urban Sprint Event
FVO Regional Event, World Ranking Event & Scottish O League 1
Gathering Park Race
AIRE Spring Sprint League and Wednesday Evening Informal
SOLWAY Regional Event & Scottish O League 2
EUOC Burns Weekend City Race
Stafford Sprint & UK Cup Race
EBOR Prize Event
EM League
Kielder trophy
Nottingham City Street O
CLARO Regional Event
Night Owl 6
Winter series 4 of 4
Scottish Sprint Championships
OD Sat Morn Local Event
National Event & Southern Championships
LEI Winter League Local Event
YHOA Night League
EUOC FwtN 7
Robin Hood Trophy
POTOC Leisure and Training Event
JOK Burns Weekend - Chasing Sprint
Middle Distance Event

Can't speak of the others but the Kielder Trophy will be a good event- although the chance of being last has increased because I won't be competing

[AndyC]

. If someone goes to a local event planned by an unmentored beginner that places controls in somewhat dubious or wrong places, it might make them decide not to bother with that level again.

Surely a beginner planning his first event would be looked after by a more experienced orienteer -if not formally "controlled". But I take your point Eddie

[awk]

Well RJ, I see you've mixed up the level 3 and level 2 events for starters which, of course, is part of the navigational help.

As SeanC indicates, the beginner won't need to navigate around most of what you list, as they won't be interested in travelling that far. So a brand that works in South Wales is irrelevant here in Yorkshire.

So, let's look at the beginner in my area. What is s/he faced with over the next couple of months?

Level 3, aimed at local orienteers, so really just those within the Aire patch.
Aire O-Lites (Saturday mornings)
Aire Sprint & Informal Series (Summer Wed evenings)
Aire Night Score League (Winter Wed evenings)
YHOA Night League

Level 2 - aimed at wider ranging orienteers, so within (say) 30 miles or so
EPOC Regional Event
Aire Regional Event
CLARO Regional Event
EBOR Prize Event
SYO Middle Distance Event

In the near future, there will also be the differentiation at level 2 in YHOA between League races and non-League races, the former being higher quality races (in terms of area and competition).

I think most beginners could cope with that. Certainly those who are regularly coming to our events seem to be able to. I do agree that maybe we could rationalise our L3 labels a wee bit, but the numbers at them seem to indicate that they are doing their job well. The only possible anomaly is having a YHOA Night League at L3, but the events they are run on the back of are relatively very small with limited courses, so they fit quite neatly into that level, and show beginners that they are small events. There are beginners courses at them!

BTW Eddie, I accept that there will be anomalies, although the Scottish Sprint Champs is actually L2 this year (are you referring to a previous year?), but I suspect that some of that is down to people avoiding the Scottish levy?? (To see a 'Full colour-coded' scheduled at L3 does seem a bit odd!). I equally agree with you about the initial mistake at scheduling C4s at L3, but that looks sorted now, and it's from here on that matters more. I think one or two of the urban races tend to get put in the wrong level (to my mind all Nopesport League races should be L2s, and one or two are not), but I think that will sort out longer term.