Sue Harvey MBE

[Scott]

I've certainly suggested it to senior(ish) people in the BOF hierarchy before, but have been dissuaded ("it's more hassle than it's worth"). It would be interesting to know where Sue's nomination originated, and who wrote the letters of support.

[eddie]

Ackers - i've tried to nominate someone and it truly is a ball ache. Along the way you get no idea how good you application is and what you need to do to make it successful.

[Scott]

Don't worry Eddie, I wasn't thinking of you.

Not that I don't consider you to be a senior(ish) person in the BOF hierarchy, obviously.

[simonbeck8848]

Red Adder

"Anyone who looks back at some of the Compass Sports of the 1980's will find Mr Beck producing similar rants and rumbles. All very amusing but to blame people for raising the bar is just too stupid for words. I seem to remember that you soon got to know the good / questionable maps and mappers and orienteered as appropriate. Now that standard is generally higher we should be thanking the Harveys, other pros such as Stirlings and some of the notable amateurs who gave us lesser lights something to aspire too. "

OK Mr Adder....

1978 I agreed to map 3/4 of an area (1.23 sq kms) with another individual but I sussed he wasnt getting on with it and decided to prioritize another map. After a while he phoned me and asked whether I had completed the bit I had agreed to do.

"How's it going?"
I havent done any of it
WHAT??????
Well have you done your bit?
No
So there's no problem then
But if you'd done your bit it would be 3/4 finished by now.....

In other words he was shouting at me down the phone for not having done the 3/4 I had agreed to do when he hadnt even started the 1/4 he had agreed to do. I lived 17 miles from the area and he lived 1 mile from the area.

1979 The individual / team producing one of the JK maps fell behind so I was asked to take over, which would have involved abandoning another map for a 'badge' event I had almost completed............

1983. In addition to being put in the position of "if you dont survey the scottish champs map the event wont go ahead in the intended forest", I was shouted at and called stingy for asking for expenses for helping with an event that was out of the range I could afford to drive to go for a training run at a time when i was desperately short of money £200 in the bank and a car worth £200. and trying to save what I could to go camping in the Pyrennees

1989 I was approached by a well known member of the orienteering community who made it clear that if I moved to her part of the country I would be expected to produce the map of a huge new area they were hoping to get access to but in the end didnt for the British champs. Among other things I was told "X did the last 2 maps in the region, he doesnt want to do the next map, you are the only other person with the right skills, you will, won't you because it's your club that's involved, you ought to because you won the national event in our region earlier on this year"

[simonbeck8848]

Anyway, I didnt move to that part of the country, I moved to SN (where, unsurprisingly, the first thing said to me by the first SN member I met was a hint that help with mapping was always welcome and a couple of months later I was phoned by the JK93 co-ordinator in the hope that I would volunteer for one of the maps) and the BOC map referred to above was - you've guessed it - produced by X

By all means give the Harveys credit for some of the work for the IOF (but not for the link between WMG and WMOC!) and I have no reason to doubt what we are told about the good they've done for the community in Doune or Dunblane, and people who know the facts (and I don't) have awarded her MBE and I havent and have no intention of saying she doesn't deserve it, but the improvement in mapping standards was achieved by putting a small number of individuals under moral pressure - even bullying - to do enormous amounts of voluntary work and only claim a proportion of their expenses, so that Harveys map services limited could not only claim expenses, but also get paid modest wages, for their contribution to mapping.

A few other things


1 I agree there are other individuals who deserve consideration for similar awards, X mentioned above for one.

2 for those who don't know, mapping is just so time consuming, one could plan all 6 days of the scottish 6 day event in about the time it takes to produce one of the maps, I say that with the authority of one who had done a lot of mapping including 3 maps for the 6 day event, and planned a day twice, although I assume ideal conditions, a map from the word go, no problems like being thrown out of part of the area, and the planner is an elite orinteer who has done it before

3 2 of the rants in Compass sport referred to by red adder were not written for compass sport, they were copied with minor modifications from rants in lesser publications, this was done without my prior kowledge, I was not entirely happy with this.

4 if the IOF really wants to do something useful ... no, this one's for a later thread

Simon Beck (aka Mr Beck, why dont you call me simon, red adder? Do you mind if I refer to you as Mr Adder?)

[SYO Member]

Simon, you're in a minority of one regarding Sue's award. Move on. You're rambling on about things that occurred 30 years ago and relate only to you.

The improvement in mapping standards was not achieved by "putting a small number of individuals under moral pressure", it was achieved because the Harvey's book allowed any interested orienteer not only to start mapping, but to do it correctly, and many did. And the WOC 76 maps' standard gave them all a target to achieve, even if only some reached it.

On behalf of everyone else, well done Sue.

[Red Adder]

Simon,

I do know how long mapping takes - having produced something like 75 over the years. Certainly none of any great complexity and only a couple of large (10 sq km) areas. Most have been done for minimal expenses at week-ends or on annual leave. For every hour that I've run in events I've probably spent 50 mapping / planning / helping at events.

In this I'm sure I'm like many, many others in the sport. And I am very thankful I've been able to spend so much time doing something I really enjoy and makes me (and hopefully those who have used my maps and run on my courses) happy.

Red

[andypat]

Theres a lot to be said for good communication skills and a bit of self-awareness!

[simonbeck8848]

OK Red, my remark about 'are people aware how long mapping takes' wanst aimed specificaly at anyone in particular. Your ratio of 1:50 for competing Vs helping is incredible, makes my 1:4 ratio look modest. I reckon if everyone pulled their weight, a 1:1 ratio would be about right although those I've discussed this with think even that is generous.

Perhaps you should be put up for an OBE or above. I wonder who you are?

Now for SYO member

"The improvement in mapping standards was not achieved by "putting a small number of individuals under moral pressure", it was achieved because the Harvey's book allowed any interested orienteer not only to start mapping, but to do it correctly, and many did. And the WOC 76 maps' standard gave them all a target to achieve, even if only some reached it. "

The facts I've seen do not support the above. My experience, in common with that of Sue Harvey herself (we discussed this issue about 10 - 15 years ago) is that almost all the work produced by volunteers has to be ignored when professionals are brought in to produce a new map of an area that has a previous amateur map although this statistic is distorted by the fact that we tend to be brought in where the club knows that the old map is wrong.

The problem is quite simply that on anything beyond really easy terrain, nothing can be trusted to be shown in the right place. Several professional mappers have got into trouble through not realising this fact until it was too late,

[awk]

The problem is quite simply that on anything beyond really easy terrain, nothing can be trusted to be shown in the right place. Several professional mappers have got into trouble through not realising this fact until it was too late,

Cuts both ways - I've seen amateur teams having to put a professional map right on more than one occasion. The label professional does not guarantee quality.

[simonbeck8848]

OMG I was interrupted and had to break off and someone has replied while I was away, sorry I should have done save, OK lets answer AWK then go back

You're absolutely right, and I've had to put right quite a few things on maps produced by other professionals (I am a professional although sadly my feet are in such a bad way I am only taking on work in parks and schools and perhaps the easiest terrain)

Harvey map services themselves were badly let down by one or two of their employees in the early 1990s, I felt rather sorry for Harveys actually although they could have supervised them a bit more.

Anyway, back to the discussion with Sue Harvey that took place 10-15 years ago, as I said to her at the time, a lot of the stuff contained in Robin's book goes out the window when people can't simply get features in the right place.

In my view, most amateurs were wasting their time on all but the easiest terrain although people have argued back on the grounds that the inaccurate maps were a useful intermediate step when there wasnt' enough money to pay for a professional map.

I suspect Robin would have included a bit more on how to keep a grip on the accuracy issue in his book if he'd realised how much work would turn out to be wrong, although I wonder how many people would have heeded the advice, I once took a group out who asked me to show them how to do surveying, we got 75m along the first path and there followed an animated discussion over whether the feature we found was a pit or a niche. I told them the important thing was to show it in the right place and tried to focus on keeping a grip on how far along the path we were, pointed out their first map would have a mapping co-ordinator who would change it to how HE felt it ought to be shown, but they didnt seem interested in the boring bit, pacing it out accurately,

[simonbeck8848]

What I've seen is that in the sort of terrain one hopes to use for major events, only a very few volunteers produce maps of the "Harvey standard " or close to it. The people who make their contribution by organising other people know this. That's why people like myself got told there were only 2 people in the region with the required skills and that if we don't do it then it won't get done or "If nobody volunteers and the fee has to go up GBP2 as a result then some people won't enter the british champs".

OK I apologise to those who feel this is a long time ago and we should move on, indeed the most recent occasion I was asked to volunteer to help with the map for a major event was 2002 when a map I did in 2000 was used for an event that had been postponed due to foot and mouth and needed revision, I was asked to do this as not additional cost as the event was likely to make a loss. BUT DID ANY OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO WERE ASKING ME TO DO THAT SUPPORT ME IN MY CRUSADE AGAINST WASTEFUL EXPENDITURE A FEW YEARS EARLIER WHEN BOF RECEIVED A GBP27000 REFUND OF MONEY THAT HAD BEEN OVERPAID IN VAT? NO THEY DID NOT. That was just Simon Beck ranting on again, wasnt' it? The majority of orienteeers didn't mind money being spent on consultants, did they? As usual, when things go wrong, it comes down to a minority of people who happen to be in the wrong place or belong to the wrong club at the wrong time who get asked to help everyone out

[andypat]

Congratulations!

I'd like to congratulate Scott on his devilishly subtle initial post. Who would have thought such an innocent looking posting was in reality such a subversive attempt to stir up a hornets nest.

[Spookster]

Congratulations!

... his brevity is also commendable!

[Scott]

I have to admit, I never thought I'd start such an entertaining debate about stuff that happened before I was born .