Whitbarrow

[Homer]

I've started a new thread, but it was prompted by RJ's thread on EOD fees...

What did anyone else think about the Whitbarrow event? I was happy to pay the highish entry fees expecting a quality event. I was just a little diappointed.

Firstly the control flags weren't hung on stakes or canes. They were on the ground, weighted down with a rock. This meant on some occasions it was possible to navigate to the feature and still not find the control (particularly reentrants in areas of thick undergrowth). I understand the reason for this; the rocky ground made it hard to get stakes in. However they seemed to manage for the National Event a couple of years ago. I would be happy with this arrangement at a L3 event, but to me, L2 indicates something of higher quality.

Secondly, a large part of the area wasn't used and this was what I consider the best bit. Even the black course had only four controls in the wooded area and these were basically of orange standard, with obvious track routes between. Was there some reason for this due to permissions? Or was the limestone pavement considered too dangerous? The rest of the course was very good and made good use of the open part of the area.

Next time there is an event at Whitbarrow, I'll be asking a few questions before entering.

[EddieH]

Flags on the ground for a level 2 event

[LesS]

It didn't half make me realise just how dependent I have become on spotting the flag to confirm the feature rather than navigating to the feature and finding the flag there - particularly the re-entrants. The accuracy required was above the norm. Someone else made the comment that it was like a night event in that respect.

[King Penguin]

You should have tried Malvern at night in the cloud. Yellow/Orange standard controls became quite a challenge as even some distinct path junctions became hard to spot.

[fatboyslim]

What did anyone else think about the Whitbarrow event? I was happy to pay the highish entry fees expecting a quality event. I was just a little diappointed.

Firstly the control flags weren't hung on stakes or canes. They were on the ground, weighted down with a rock. This meant on some occasions it was possible to navigate to the feature and still not find the control (particularly reentrants in areas of thick undergrowth). I understand the reason for this; the rocky ground made it hard to get stakes in. However they seemed to manage for the National Event a couple of years ago. I would be happy with this arrangement at a L3 event, but to me, L2 indicates something of higher quality.


Next time there is an event at Whitbarrow, I'll be asking a few questions before entering.[/quote]

Excerpt from final details published the week before the event:-

"Due to the rocky nature of the terrain it will be impossible to hang kites from canes or stakes. Kites in the main will be laid on the ground with the SI boxes and control numbers attached by a cord."

[Neil M40]

What did anyone else think about the Whitbarrow event? I was happy to pay the highish entry fees expecting a quality event. I was just a little diappointed.

Firstly the control flags weren't hung on stakes or canes. They were on the ground, weighted down with a rock. This meant on some occasions it was possible to navigate to the feature and still not find the control (particularly reentrants in areas of thick undergrowth). I understand the reason for this; the rocky ground made it hard to get stakes in. However they seemed to manage for the National Event a couple of years ago. I would be happy with this arrangement at a L3 event, but to me, L2 indicates something of higher quality.


Next time there is an event at Whitbarrow, I'll be asking a few questions before entering.

Excerpt from final details published the week before the event:-

"Due to the rocky nature of the terrain it will be impossible to hang kites from canes or stakes. Kites in the main will be laid on the ground with the SI boxes and control numbers attached by a cord."

Presumably Homer read the final details, but only after he had paid his entry fee. I think he still has a right to be disappointed. Apart from anything else, it is against the rules.

6.3 The Control Banner
6.3.1 The control site shall be identified on the ground by a three sided banner with each
side vertical and around 30 cm square, divided diagonally bottom left to top right, the
top left half being white, the bottom right half normally being orange (preferably
PMS165).
6.3.2 The control banner shall be hung at the feature indicated on the map in accordance
with the control description. The control banner shall be visible to competitors when
they can see the described position.

[seabird]

Can any geologist tell us whether the Whitbarrow limestone is more resistant to inserting canes or thin stakes than other limestine areas.

Yes there are usually difficulties - but there also is usually a way.

Large metal stakes are very difficult in limetone terrain - but a kite on a cane with a control box on a plate at ground level should be manageable.

[EddieH]

At Rogie for WOC 99 we didn't have to reject a single site because we (Steve Smirthwaite really) were unable to get in the wooden tressles that we were required to build.

Rogie is not limestone, but much of it appears to be solid rock.

Mind you no-one would be expected to take that much time and effort for a level 2 event.

[Snail]

BO Rules wrote:
... 6.3.1 The control site shall be identified on the ground ...

And it was!

[geomorph]

It didn't half make me realise just how dependent I have become on spotting the flag to confirm the feature rather than navigating to the feature and finding the flag there - particularly the re-entrants. The accuracy required was above the norm. Someone else made the comment that it was like a night event in that respect.

Couldn't agree more.
A quality navigator does not need to be able to see the kite until they are standing adjacent to it. The kite is only there to confirm you have achieved the objective, not to show where the objective is. Likewise the punch is only there to provide proof of visit.

It is a lot of extra work to ensure the kite is hung to minimise kite-seeking navigation, and similarly it requires extra effort to ensure that plate-kites can be visible as per rule 6.3.2. Too often I've been able to see the described feature, but not the kite.

I'd rather be frustrated by not finding a control site because I am not led into it by a visible kite, than the all too frequent 'seen yer' at 50+m. The latter gives little satisfaction, whereas finding the feature first time through navigation not beacons is immensely so.

I see no problem with using plate kites where appropriate. If they help to make the navigation challenge tougher (but not a lottery), or allow sites to be used that otherwise would be too visible, then use them. Mix them up with conventional kites to keep up concentration levels.

[AndyC]

[A quality navigator does not need to be able to see the kite until they are standing adjacent to it.
.

Assuming the map -and control description- is good enough I agree (Not a comment about the map in question as I have no knowledge of it)

[Zokko!]

Another interesting aspect of siting controls on the ground. Has anyone else had SI units chewed by cattle before? This is what three units look like after spending a little time at the north of the map, where Brown and Black runners may have visited them. They still appear to work normally, but may have had the water seal around the hole compromised. Anyone got any old defunct units that they could offer to rehouse the BSF7 innards?

[geomorph]

The cattle must have mistaken them for blackberries

[seabird]

Nothing to stop the cattle eating them if they are on stakes either.

[Spookster]

Anyone got any old defunct units that they could offer to rehouse the BSF7 innards?

Sorry, I'm keeping hold of my dead BSF3s in order to do an upgrade at some stage to BSF7s. But you can buy the plastic box and rubber rings separately from SportIdent, for about £8 a unit. Compared to the whole SI unit cost of £103 each, that seems a good deal!