Guidelines for level 2 events in 2010

[mappingmum]

. . . . . I can't see why there's a need for 'S' classes

Answer = Split starts + limited start windows + requirement to get 2 adults and 2 children under 9 to the start on time.

[Blanka]

. . . . . I can't see why there's a need for 'S' classes

Answer = Split starts + limited start windows + requirement to get 2 adults and 2 children under 9 to the start on time.

>> mappingmum

As Sunlit Forres says, "you can enter any course you like at regional level". This gives you much more choice in what course you can choose to run even if you're doing split starts. You choose your course based on ability, just like you would with the old style colour coded - arguably, the new system is much better for parents who need split starts.

[Sunlit Forres]

I'm not talking about the JK or British Champs Mappingmum, just regionals. Plenty folk seem to be moaning about low attendances at regionals so I can't see that insufficient start slots is really an issue.

I don't think split starts is an issue either; I think you can now enter any course you like (not just the L or S for your particular age class). Before my kids decided orienteering was uncool we managed to fit in 2 long courses OK. The fact that one parent was doing an early long course gave the other enough time to get the kids round theirs and get back to the car to get organised for their own late start.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against people doing shorter courses (I'm totally for it!). I just think that one competitive race per age class makes sense to someone who started off life as a road runner. It provides a larger competitive field and hence a more interesting set of results.

[mappingmum]

I'm not talking about the JK or British Champs . . . just regionals.

Oh right, OK. Penny dropped.

[andypat]

I'd be happy if the length of 'L' classes were reduced slightly now and again if that made them more achievable to everyone in that age class. Dare I say it, you could then even call it a middle distance race.

Ah but you couldnt - as we've since found out elsewhere theres more to middle distance than just distance!!

[Mrs H]

It provides a larger competitive field and hence a more interesting set of results.

But where are these extra people coming from? Chances are the people who ran their short classes did so because they enjoyed the distance as much as anything - so they'll probably pick a course of similar distance - and so will all the other people who used to run short - hey presto an instant age class S class.

You contradict yourself earlier by claiming age class competition would be more meaningful if everyone in the same age group ran the same class and then conclude that people are on a certain course because it best suits their ability. Age and ability have very little in common and you ignore the most important factor of all - enjoyment - which I though was the main reason for orienteering in the first place. I would far rather do 4k than 6k but would be happy with 5k - I don't give two hoots what other women my age want to do or how well they do it - I don't do it for them - I do it for me (but I do enjoy the competition when it is there as Wendles and Mrs Awk will confirm)

[AAH]

There does have to be some competitive alternative to long courses - M21L takes most competitors almost as long as it would take them to do a half marathon. Great when you're fit, training regularly and experienced enough not to make 20 minute errors, but not otherwise. A course that is a good run for the elite is a 2hr slog to some.

Having come back to the sport after a gap of years I was initially aghast at the use of colour coded courses - I'm not fit enough at the moment to run long without taking longer than is fun. However, I've found that it is good fun to compete on a colour coded course with lots of competitors of a mix of ages than a short course with the same handful of competitors each event...

That being said, one option would have been to keep just M21S/W21S at category 2 or to create a new M21B/W21B for people who want a medium length course and to have maintained a ranking list for that class. There would be enough competitors for those to be quite interesting competitive courses. (Could also do M40S/W40S, M60S/W60S and leave it at that).

[Sunlit Forres]

In competitive (ie regional event) orienteering, enjoyment has nothing to do with it in my book Mrs H. I just want to beat as many other folk as I can. That makes it hurt; the enjoyment (or more often abject misery) comes after the finish! I do accept that I'm probably in a minority though.

I recognise that 'go at your own pace' and 'family sport for all ages' is an integral and vital part of orienteering - I've recruited quite a few new members to our club on exactly that basis. But sometimes I think that we'd be taken more seriously as a sport if there were a bit more emphasis on the competitive side.

[SJC]

I just want to beat as many other folk as I can.

Do you really mean that ?
I know I can beat all the W35s & W40s who choose to run on the same course. Similarly I will get beaten by most of the M16s.
Whilst the colour coded sourses are fine for local events and regional leagues, any serious competition has to be age class based.

[Sunlit Forres]

I do mean that SJC. When do my local 10K in the eusual 48 mins or so, I get beaten by loads of W35+s, (really) old blokes and youngsters too. I get a kick out of beating similar sorts of people who I know are faster than me but who I can outwit by better navigation.

[madmike]

- M21L takes most competitors almost as long as it would take them to do a half marathon. a good run for the elite is a 2hr slog to some.

Not true it would take most of us (short fat middle-aged etc) much longer than a half marathon would and that's recent experience talking. You are often talking about 3hrs not just 2!

That being said, one option would have been to keep just M21S/W21S at category 2 or to create a new M21B/W21B for people who want a medium length course and to have maintained a ranking list for that class. There would be enough competitors for those to be quite interesting competitive courses. (Could also do M40S/W40S, M60S/W60S and leave it at that).

True but more work
If you are concerned about S classes at level 2 events, you could just reduce the nuber of short courses, as they do down under, i.e same L cses as we have now but make S 35-50, 55-65 and 70+. M40s and M45s tend to have reasonable numbers but M35S is often sparse cf historical levels and as Mrs H says W S classes can be peerless!

Edit: took too long writing this post Sunlit has answered above - and he meant it!

[SeanC]

Is there any tool club webmasters can use to quickly filter on a list for age class in the way fabian4 does for club/country? I think it is important to be able to explicitly display in both age or course, this makes the status of either mode equal. By asking the competitor to filter age by eyeball from a whole course list, this lowers the status of the age based competition. For M45 + the age based competitions at most regionals are still pretty good, why spoil their fun?

Personally, I've found the best competition to be our local Kent Night Cup events as everyone competes on the same course (mass start score), there's a big range of standards to compare performance against, and you get to know fellow competitors in the pub afterwards so your not just competiting against a name. And there's a lot more post event discussion. Still looking forward to classic cross country regional events for a more pure orienteering experience and to run in the daylight.

[DJM]

We hope that the new rankings list will start on Jan 1st and, subject to approval, should apply to level 1 and 2 events too. The BOF website is due to have a tool which will filter results by age class so that, for any event, you will be able to see how many points each M45 (for example) has scored at the event.

[Gnitworp]

... and presumably separate, extracted, 'rolling' age class ranking lists will be viewable?

[awk]

Whilst the colour coded sourses are fine for local events and regional leagues, any serious competition has to be age class based.

Rubbish! Almost all the least competitive races I've been to have involved BOF age classes. Course based races regularly provide much closer competition. I'm not interested in being limited to competing against people mostly within 2-3 years of my age, when so many others are of similar ability (my true peer group). Indeed, age class competition means that for 40% of the time, I'm excluding from competing against people only months different from me. Ridiculous.

Serious competition is about where the racing matters and where it is close. At age class based races, that happens rarely (i.e. only at the biggest events).

On the M21S/W21S discussion. Surely every course is a effectively M/W21, i.e. Open? So, just run the course you want, it'll be some sort of M/W21 race.