CompassSport Cup Final

[mike g]

I am not directing any criticism at LEI - I'm sure there are good reasons why they couldn't hold the event on a better area, and I don't agree with RJ's comments about the entry fee. The efforts of their volunteers will be appreciated.

But the fact is that a pattern has developed over several years of the final being held on grotty or technically undemanding areas. Contrary to Gross's argument, that does make a difference to the competition, as people in clubs who regularly make the final are getting sick of travelling long distances for an unpleasant or unchallenging run. SLOW has barely raised a team this year, and after seeing the map some of us who are going are wishing we weren't.

I think it is outrageous that BOF is raking most of the profits from the event, over and above the normal levy. What does BOF contribute to the competition? - nothing that I can see. Plainly that must be a contributing factor to the problem, as it makes it less attractive to clubs to host the event, or to use their best areas.

The way the event is assigned to clubs also needs looking at. The 2011 final is already registered in the fixtures list as a DVO event with the area TBA. It would be much better if the area is determined, and a controller or major events committee satisfy themselves of its suitability, before the event is assigned to a club.

[SeanC]

Isn't there a BOF event structure review group etc etc looking at all the major events and would probably welcome all this feedback (or may be reading this anyway)?

Maybe part of the issue is that if clubs do make the final year after year then it's only natural that the level of excitement can't be maintained? Maybe it's too easy for some of the bigger clubs to make it to the final? The competition seems to be tighter for small clubs, there are probably more of them now with declining membership and there is less of a variation in membership numbers compared to a bigger club (typically 50-100 members in a small club compared to 100 - 300 for big clubs).

Here's an example of how you might do it.

Have 3 rounds. Round 1 would be head to head matches with a nearby cup/trophy club. Round 2 would be regional heats as now but with smaller numbers than at present and possibly covering a bigger area, the final might be as now but have less teams than at present. This would give more clubs the chance of winning a round, but less teams in the final.

[graeme]

It certainly affects the competition.

Here in interlopers land we look at where the final is going to be. If its clear we won't get a team to go to the final*, then we run the "wrong" course in the heat to make sure we aren't depriving another club of the chance.

For our small club, with all the age-group constraints, there are about four people who if they say "no" would leave us without a full team. The scoring system makes it pointless to travel without a full team.

* Ironically, the phrase "Bramble patch in Leicestershire" is one we've always used for an area nobody is going to enjoy running in.

[Mrs H]

I feel really bad about starting this thread now - I was expecting a bit of pre-event inter club banter and all that has happened is a lot of rudery directed towards Leicerstershire terrain and unfounded allegations of profiteering.

As for a "bramble patch in Leicestershire" I thought the Middle distance race there in May was the best event I've been to all year and I'm sorry to hear it was not a financial success.

I think it's sad that clubs that regularly qualify have become so blase when first timers like us are feeling very proud of getting there at all and very excited at the prospect.

everyone should of course do as they please - but don't descend into snide swipes about other events to defend your position - it rather weakens your argument!

[redkite]

As a small club (SWOC) we still have 26 runners travelling for over 3 hours to the CSt final. Its just a shame that most of our key points scorers from previous years are either injured, working or have other committments. Look on the bright side, the terrain must be more runnable than the Welsh last Saturday.

[Homer]

It's not what you consider yourself, but what you feel like doing - the joy of being able to pick and choose!

I disagree. I don't particularly feel like driving for hours to get my legs ripped to shreds by brambles (and pay quite a lot-justifiably-for the privilege)!
There's plenty I'd rather do even if I'm not in demand to run the FRA's. However I feel a great deal of loyalty towards my club such that I feel it my duty to turn out for the CompassSport Cup. Afterall it is a maximum of two races per year.
I'm disappointed that others don't feel the same way. I'd also be very interested to hear Oli's (and GG's) point of view.

Gross is correct in pointing out that the level of competition is more important than the standard of terrain. The level of competition will be high, even without the likes of Nails, but wouldn't it be better to use a better area so that we can attract all the 'terrain snobs' and have an even higher level of competition?

[JennyJ]

When the CSC/FRA clash became apparent we had a choice to make and Oli and I and some others made the decision to run for SYO in the CSC and Dark Peak in the Ian Hodgsons. We are orienteers first and foremost and like to turn out for our club where possible. Some made the other choice. In the past we've run the FRAs on the Saturday and then the CSC on the Sunday but they seem to have switched the FRAs for some reason...

As for brambles, being from North Yorkshire that's not particularly an issue for me! It does seem a shame that the CSC is not normally on a 'good' area but Yvette would always say the best person will win wherever the race (it's important that juniors don't get this good/bad area thing into their heads), hopefully next year will be perceived to be better to the competitors and therefore there'll be a higher turnout? Planning can make a big difference and we'll see what the race is actually like on Sunday. I've run international races on some areas which certainly weren't the best even in the region where they were held.

Good luck to everyone on Sunday wherever they're running/orienteering!

[graeme]

the best person will win wherever the race

Not quite: the best person who turns up will win, wherever the race if the planning is good.
For an individual race, if you don't show up, that's your fault, tough. But for a team race
everyone else is affected if a team member doesn't show up, which is why it is especially important to make CSC (and relays) as attractive as possible.

I'm not criticising the venue in general: putting the final in LEI makes it more accessible to more people. It just works very badly for us.

Roll on 2012

[Jon Brooke]

Bit off the main subject but...

Why not limit the number of scoring runners from each club in the final ahead of time? ie the club nominates their scoring team (with a couple of spares) before the event.

That way, everyone from the club could do their bit to get the club qualified, everyone in that club would have an idea of who would be the best team for the final, but there wouldn't be the same pressure to get big numbers to travel the length of the country to do the final (possibly already with a feeling of being out of the running). Maybe that way the clubs who live further away would feel keener to be involved.

Currently, unless I felt sure that our club stood a chance, and that my run would score I would be loath to travel far to do the final, especially as I would be expecting local clubs to have a V good turn out and an advantage. And therefore I would also be less bothered about the club doing well in qualifying.

If each club in the final just had 15 (say) potentil scoring runners, there would be no excuse for not sorting a minibus, and having a full team to compete with, but the whole club would have been able to participate in qualifying. At the same time anyone local (or spouses etc.) could do a none-scoring run.

Maybe that would also make room for a couple more teams in the final?

[Oldman]

I think it is outrageous that BOF is raking most of the profits from the event, over and above the normal levy.

I don't believe that's true. Usually a major BOF event is on a profit (and loss) sharing basis OR a levy basis, not both. Perhaps someone can confirm whether that's true for this year's CSC Final?

[PKJ]

Well, in this context the best club will win - 'best' also takes account of who's prepared to turn out for them.
My basic view is that if it's good enough for JennyJ, Oli, gg etc, it's good enough for me. But I can understand people who are likely to have even less impact than me on the overall result not wanting to travel a long distance to an 'average' area.
So, if anything, I'd increase the number of scoring runners.

Like NOC & SLOW, AIRE will have a fairly small team. But by Sunday night I'm hoping to award the planner a 'silk purse from a sow's ear' award, and applaud an impressive performance from our Carling Cup squad.

[funnyrunner]

JennyJ wrote:

it's important that juniors don't get this good/bad area thing into their heads

Why should juniors turn up to run in crap terraine? they're much better off just going for a long run, somewhere more inspiring. Crappy woodland blocks could put them off orienteeering. And being a crapy english woodland specilist hardly cements their international future.

Personally I'm pretty pissed off that, after my clubmates convincing, i've reserved my weekend to go run somewhere that appears to have less features and more green than my back garden.

[Gross]

JennyJ wrote:

it's important that juniors don't get this good/bad area thing into their heads

Why should juniors turn up to run in crap terraine? they're much better off just going for a long run, somewhere more inspiring. Crappy woodland blocks could put them off orienteeering. And being a crapy english woodland specilist hardly cements their international future.

International orienteering is much more than about the terrain. Bring juniors up to believe that orienteering is only good in quality technical terrain is a BIG mistake... what happens when BOF get WOC in a few years time and decided to hold the competitions on 'crappy english woodland' ?

A junior gains far more from decent competition on poor terrain than no competition on technical Scandi terrain.... competitive orienteering is about much more than technical ability.... physical ability (running fast & strong) and mental ability.

Just going for a long run.... bollocks in this case

[RJ]

Apologies to LEI, I know they are getting all the stick in this debate.

Our qualifier was held on a totally new area with a completely new map. Entry fees were £7 per senior. This was a very reasonable fee considering what was on offer. If other clubs in the area had put the event on the entry fee would have been less if an existing area was used.

My point is, that the final is no different from the qualifier.... just three times as many competitors. This makes the event even more viable. There should be no reason why the entry fees are higher. If the event is now labeled as L1, then I hope that means it is of the quality of BOC and the JK. If, as I believe it is now, an L2, then again the quality is supposed to be there. What was the whole point of the event review but to insist on quality standards.

The CompassSport competition is very important because it gives all clubs the opportunity to compete with the whole range of 'members'. It should not be an opportunity for BOF and the organising club to make a 'killing', just because there is a captive audience. The event should have exactly the same stature/level as the qualifiers, just be on a good quality area that will give the 'final' some memorable moments

[NeilC]

As a south coast club probably our two most memorable CSC finals were in Northumberland and the Lancashire Moors. Areas were nothing special but the events were far enough away that we took mini-buses up the day before stayed in Youth Hostels or Bothies and got to visit Hadrian's Wall / central Manchester on a Saturday night.

In the last few years the finals have been close enough to take 50/60 members there and back on a coach on the day. Still a good club outing but not quite the same atmosphere.

Regarding cost, the club subsidises both entry fees and coach transport to the sum of several hundred pounds as a thank you to all those prepared to represent their club at this event and for all the work put in running our events throughout the year.

Hope those rumours about SLOW are true - I don't think that we have ever beaten them in the final.