Event Structure - four levels!!

[Mrs H]

It's a bit like asking the delegates at a party conference who they want to win the next election

I'm not sure that is an entirely accurate analogy!.

Wow that's a bit rich from someone who introduced the Mugabe analogy - not only not entirely accurate but also fairly offensive to boot!

[IanW]

Well you should look it up then..

I don't know where to look, I didn't file a copy. I did suggest in my last post that someone who knows might like to post the exact question so that we can judge how biased it was.

In any case, if you read my first post, I was simply countering awk's statement that nobody on his club committee was in favour of age class competition. Even if the question is as you say, it still indicates that a large number of people are.

[IanW]

Wow that's a bit rich from someone who introduced the Mugabe analogy - not only not entirely accurate but also fairly offensive to boot!

I'm sorry, who did I offend by comparing them to Mugabe?

If you read my posts, I haven't tried to insult anyone. I used the Mugabe analogy initially to mean a 90% majority because I didn't want to quote figures. I then said that even Mugabe didn't know how to achieve such a majority by biasing a question i.e. I was suggesting that the organisers of the poll were not like Mugabe.

Why do discussions on here get so agressive so quickly?

[graeme]

Graeme..... Levels for those events is a no-brainer. Club Champs... those are the people you are aiming the event at.
All the others are L2, and will attract 'national' participants. The PWT event is quite obviously L1.

I agree - except for the club champs which (like I said) is aimed at a wider audience would be more like the old "C4": limited courses, good quality.

BUT, the other events have all been staged under the old system...

The chasing sprint has never made it to the old C3 (your L2) - it doesn't have full range of age groups, doesn't fit the "regional event" guidelines.
Under the old system the Edinburgh street race was C4.
The Sprint Champs went from C5 to C4, never reaching L2, again because of the shortage of courses and their "inappropriate" length.
PWT is only approved by PWT committee a year ahead of time, so falls foul of all the L1 timetable guidelines. Even now fixtures are (quite rightly IMO) not giving it the protection a L1 event should get.

To say the old system didn't cater for any of them is inventing 'ridiculous' logic to the situation.

So, I agree with you, it should be a no brainer that the levels are what you say. And the old system got them all wrong. That's not "inventing ridiculous logic" - it's what actually happened.

[RJ]

The chasing sprint has never made it to the old C3 (your L2) - it doesn't have full range of age groups, doesn't fit the "regional event" guidelines.
Under the old system the Edinburgh street race was C4.
The Sprint Champs went from C5 to C4, never reaching L2, again because of the shortage of courses and their "inappropriate" length.

So the conclusion, really, is that the guidelines for the various levels are inconsistent with the events being offered. Some events just didn't fit into the 'regional event' guideline. So that is the problem!! Change the guidelines so that they can include any events. The level structure....L1, L2, L3, L4 merely lets you know how good the event is likely to be as far as the 'competition' is concerned.

I have always considered the Harvester, the JOK Chasing Sprint, and now the Urban Series as L2 events. They have the perceived quality to attract competitors from all over the country. The dates can be protected, at least as far as adjoining regions.... if JOK is in SEOA then a similar standard event can certainly take place in SOA or NEOA or NWOA or WOA.

[roadrunner]

Final question: I can't be the only one completely confused by the many different BOF committees/groups. If there were half as many committees/groups meeting twice as often (maybe remotely rather than driving to Birmingham ? ), would things have been much smoother?

No, you're certainly not the only one! The BOF website says:

The governance of British Orienteering is made up of a Board of Directors, five Committees and seven Groups. The Board of Directors has ten members and is responsible for the Governance of British Orienteering.

The Five Committees are:

Coaching
Development
Event Operations
International
Trail O
The Seven Groups are:

Junior Competitions
Elite Competitions
Senior Competitions
Major Events
Rules
Fixtures
Map

but that doesn't include (for example) the Rankings Working Group, which we've been talking about in this thread.

[NeilC]

So that is the problem!! Change the guidelines so that they can include any events.

The latest board minutes suggest that these guidelines may finally have worked their way through whatever groups and committees needed to see/approve them

A set of documents with Rules and Guidelines for 2010 was adopted.

[Wayward-O]

So the conclusion, really, is that the guidelines for the various levels are inconsistent with the events being offered. Some events just didn't fit into the 'regional event' guideline.

I'm confused. Surely a major part of the new Event Structure was to remove the straight jacket from the Regional event and allow the quality of event to dictate the level. Now it would appear that a Regional event must meet the old straight jacket requirements anyway!

[frog]

Agree with Graeme that folk who disagreed with the questionnaire probably didn't hand it in. I'm not a big fan of the changes, mainly for the embargo controller thing that seems to be relaxing a bit. As SOLs continue to keep age classes in the league results I didn't understand why the English equivalents couldn't have age classes as well. You just need someone willing to do the statistics and fiddly bits.
Agree the lack of the gold silver bronze badges for juniors at SOLs is a shame as our juniors were just starting to get into them and the colour coded badges don't have the same kudos.
It's not made much difference to events we've organised and ran in.
We just need to try and remember to ask someone to look at the risk assessment.

[awk]

In any case, if you read my first post, I was simply countering awk's statement that nobody on his club committee was in favour of age class competition.

Except that's not what I said!! You appear to be falling into the very trap of misconception that the survey/petition authors themselves fell into.
What I said was that nobody was in favour of the fundamental structure being age class based. As I've tried to make clear, the new structure allows age class competition to be built on to this, and that is what we as a club have done.

I'm more than happy to see age class competition for those who want it. Personally I prefer to compete against my real peers (i.e. similar standard) rather than those based simply on arbitrary age cut-offs. For example, the best race I've been in this year (i.e. close competition) was the C Final of the British Elite Sprints* - barely 2-3 minutes covering most of the class. Not that many M50s involved though. But that doesn't mean I'm against age class competition - just structuring our races around age classes.

BTW, RJ, no I don't think we need to practice running age classes in preparation for L1s. Why should we?

*but that experience will also be wrecked by the latest decision to merge Elite and Age Class champs, against the advice of both Senior and Junior competitions groups.

[Paul Frost]

The question on the survey distributed at the 6 Days was:

A: I am unhappy about the loss of almost all competition in age classes from the orienteering calendar and would like to see the reintroduction of competition in age classes at regional level.

B: I am not concerned about the loss of competition in age classes and see no need to reintroduce competition in age classes at regional level.

I support statement A or B

I didn't return mine as I didn't agree with either statement.

[awk]

I didn't reply either, as both questions were totally nonsensical.

[DaveR]

When the questionaire was handed to me at the 6-days I talked to the distributor saying pretty much exactly what awk, Graeme and others have said above. I didn't fill the questionaire in, and didn't send a detailed critique to the organisers, so my opinion would not have been counted.

I think that getting away from strictly age based competition in most events is a very good thing - let people run the course they want without forcing them to be labelled "non-competitive". At the SOL series in Scotland I typically run up and Ann now runs down, rather than feeling forced into a course that is longer than is fun for her.

[redkite]

I did not reply to the survey either as the questions were biased and misinformed.

I can remember years ago being asked to help someone to sell his business. Unfortunately, he had been talking to a mate in a pub who had told him that businesses such as his were worth 'so much'. His mate was wrong but it still put an unrealistic price expectation in the businessman's head. Very difficult to change such mindsets

The questions in the survey were probably triggered by a similar mindset. met some orienteers in the car park who said that no age class competitions anymore etc.

[SeanC]

Age class competitions are still here in the south east. Here's two regionals coming up soon:

Chig Mitre:

Black 10.0 – 14.0km M21L
Brown 8.0 – 12.0km M35L, M40L
Short Brown 7.0 – 10.0km M18L, M20L, M45L, M50L, M21S, W21L
Blue 5.5 – 7.5km M16, M55L, M60L, M35S, M40S, W35L, W40L
Short Blue 4.5 – 6.5km M65L, M18S, M20S, M45S, M50S, W18L, W20L, W45L, W50L, W21S
Green 3.5 – 5.0km M70L, M55S, M60S, W16, W55L, W60L, W35S, W40S
Short Green 3.0 – 4.0km M75L, M80, M65S, M70S, W65L, W70L, W75L, W80, W45S, W50S, W55S, W60S
Light Green 3.0 – 4.0km M14, W14
Orange 2.5 – 3.5km M12, W12
Yellow 2.0 – 2.9km M10, W10
White 1.0 – 1.9km
Wayfarer/ novice 3.0 – 3.5km

SLOW Ok Nuts Trophy

Black M21, M35, M40
Brown M45, M50
Short Brown M55, M20, M18, M21S, W21
Blue M16, M60, M35S, M40S, W35, W40
Short Blue M65, M45S, M50S, W20, W18, W45, W50, W21S
Green M70, M55S, M60S, W16, W55, W60, W35S, W40S
Light Green M75, M80, M65S, M70S, M14, W65, W70, W75, W80, W45S, W50S, W55S, W60S, W14
Orange M12, W12
Yellow M10, W10
Long Orange M21N W21N also suitable for adult beginners
White suitable for young beginners
Free String Course

A couple of things that will properly sort themselves out with time are clubs displaying results by course and age classes which should keep everyone happy. Also it would be good if clubs could remind people on the fliers that they can enter any course they want without being N/C since this may confuse the new orienteers.