Event / Course Incentive Schemes

[rascrutt]

I was also at the Development Committee meeting and my understanding is more or less the same as Scott's (just as well!). Basically, the new Challenge is an incentive to bring relatively new orienteers up to a level where they can be competitive, where the incentive to beat their colleagues takes over. The question is where does the transition takes place and are more incentives needed than simply racing your peers? Is the racing challenge too easy, i.e. the transition is too soon - I think it is. Are the right criteria being used (mpk only) - probably not, and all of the problems mentioned here were discussed at the meeting. DevComm will need to look at the criteria again and therefore decided to review the scheme after 1 year (?) and when the competitions review is further down the road. Pity I'm missing Saturday!

[Tatty]

Seems a bit unfair that there is no difference for men and women. Can't see many veteran woman getting many gold standards. But then do they care anyway?

[Becks]

I have to confess that my Mum did all the sewing, as this was made in secret! The YHOA Badge chap did say that it was the first time anyone had asked him for a Brown badge.

[Ernie_Wise]

This is probably a bit facetious but... As somebody who is trying to introduce and encourace the continued participation of a new persion to orienteering, isn't the simple act of going out and enjoying a well planned/challenging orienteering event incentive enough? Or maybe I've just got the wrong end of the stick.

[roadrunner]

...are more incentives needed than simply racing your peers?

I would say that the answer is yes, and more so with the new event structure than with the old one:

• On the old style Badge/Regional events, anyone in a given age group would enter one of two courses (excluding those who ran up) - and most would consistently choose the same one
• On the old Colour-Coded/District events, the choice would be Green/Blue/Brown, and most of the people I would have considered my peers would have run Blue

But with the new system anyone runs any course, and there are potentially more to choose from; so you're less likely to be running the same course as your peers any more, unless of course you co-ordinate things in advance.The single ranking list would have mitigated this to some extent, but there doesn't seem to be much progress on that at the moment.

So I think that focussing all the incentives on beginners is excluding a large fraction of the current orienteering population; surely that isn't desirable.

[Snail]

But with the new system anyone runs any course, and there are potentially more to choose from; so you're less likely to be running the same course as your peers any more

That depends on whether you class your peers only as those within your age class, or those of a similar ability. (And even in your age-class there is a 20% change from year to year.) Under the old system I could have a good race against someone on say a Blue course one week, and then find them running a different (age-related) course the next week. Under the new system it is more likely that we would both run the Blue course on both weeks.

Seems to me that there could actually be less variation under the new system from week to week (except at Level 1 events).

[greywolf]

with the new system anyone runs any course, and there are potentially more to choose from; so you're less likely to be running the same course as your peers any more

Not sure i agree - firstly it's not all that clear that there will be huge numbers of people changing their course preference - in Scotland it seems the majority are still doing the usual course e.g. http://www.rstrain.ndtilda.co.uk/results_09/sol4/ though this is no doubt partly because of SOL points.

If preferences do change over time then IMHO you'll be more likely to run against your peers (i.e. those with the same power / ability), although you may be less likely to run against the rest of your cohort (i.e. those in the same age group).

With the exception of Black/M21L, most courses at Badge/Regional/L2/whatever events have always been shared by a number of classes - personally I compete mostly against my own incompetence (i.e. if less than 10% of my time is mistakes then it's a good run), but in so far as I chart my progress (or not) against others, then it's against anyone good (or famous!) - Martin D, Becks, Eddie H, etc, etc, regardless of age / gender...

Edit:

...

Damn your nimble fingers...

[Gnitworp]

Competing against people of my own sex and age class has the most attraction for me. We are as much an unequivocally defined generic group as Male Open (M21). The parameters of the definition are clear; it's a level playing field for all. Let battle commence

[sketchweppers]

I can't see how setting an arbitrary pace for all events is at all sensible. How can an event at the Scottish 6 day possible be comparable to an event in Thetford Forest? I wouldn't really consider myself an experienced orienteer after only 2 years participation, and was really motivated by the (old) national badge scheme, and was rather upset to realise that the new event structure did not allow it to continue. After achieving colour coded standards up to green, it gave me something to aim for, and I felt much happier competing only with people in my age class at regional events. I have just managed to achieve my Silver badge, and I feel that is a real achievement for me. I don't consider myself to be an athlete, and was useless at any sort of PE or games in my youth, and am probably still classed as obese (according to my BMI figure). If the figure of 12.5 min/km is suggested as Gold Standard, that is just ridiculous - as I can achieve that most of the time on Green courses, and sometimes on Blue courses (in East Anglia) - and there is no way I should be a 'Gold' standard orienteer! I would like a 'challenging' incentive scheme - not one that is achievable by all. However I certainly didn't manage that sort of pace at the Scottish 6 day even taking the climb into consideration!
I think that the old system basing the award times on the time of the winners means that there is a better comparison between areas.
I may be one of the few adults who is motivated by the 'badge scheme', but I believe that juniors would be far more motivated by receiving badges - it has been great for my own two children. My son (M12) achieved his Orange badge sometime last year, and was then motivated to try to get Bronze or Silver times at JM3 at regional events (where there was more competition), long before he was ready to try moving on to Light Green courses.
This new scheme is clearly only aimed at real beginners - what is there for those of us who would probably be classed as improvers or intermediate orienteers?

[DJM]

roadrunner wrote:

The single ranking list would have mitigated this to some extent, but there doesn't seem to be much progress on that at the moment

We're still working on this and the target is to start at the beginning of next year. So, yes, progress is being made!

[SYO Member]

Sketchweppers, like myself and many others, including those who have mentioned it here, why not just look on traditional Badge times as a measure of your performance without the need, at least for most adults, to claim a cloth badge? And as with some Regionals in the last few years, if organisers don't give Badge times in the results, just do the calculations yourself like I do.

Over 20 Long starters:
Gold: Avg. of 1st 3 Long runners' times x 1.25
Silver: Avg. of 1st 3 Long runners' times x 1.5.
Bronze: Avg. of 1st 3 Long runners' times x 2

If 11-20 starters, Avg. of 1st 2
If 10 or less starters, Winners time.

Short courses: Multiply times by Short length/Long length

In the new world of Level 2 events, as long as you enter the recommended course for your age (for Long or Short), you can still do the calculations based on the times of people in your age group, irrespective of who else was running that course. Even though, as has also been said here, it's not clear in this new world whether or not more people are running up than used to.

As DJM says, work is going on by o-statisticians to give us a single ranking list and we should all thank them for this. But without pre-empting anything, what I would be interested to know is this.

Probably a year ago or more, there was a thread relating to a single ranking list and it was pointed out that using calculated factors, it would be possible to produce a SRL which took into account (within reason) ANY course that you ran. For example, M50S is now Short Blue, and M50L is Short Brown. If I did Blue, would I still get points?

[greywolf]

there was a thread relating to a single ranking list and it was pointed out that using calculated factors, it would be possible to produce a SRL which took into account (within reason) ANY course that you ran. For example, M50S is now Short Blue, and M50L is Short Brown. If I did Blue, would I still get points?

Yes

[sketchweppers]

[quote="SYO Member"]
In the new world of Level 2 events, as long as you enter the recommended course for your age (for Long or Short), you can still do the calculations based on the times of people in your age group, irrespective of who else was running that course. Even though, as has also been said here, it's not clear in this new world whether or not more people are running up than used to.

Yes, I have done all the calculations, but it only works if the results actually include age class (some results don't). It is however a bit tedious to do it all manually, when it used to be done and published for you, and yes I may be a bit childish, but I do like to claim my cloth badge and certificate. My children are probably more justified in wanting to claim their badges - so surely it could be re-instated for the juniors!

The suggested new incentive scheme is probably fine for beginners, and the ranking list may satisfy the better orienteers, but what will there be as an incentive for the rest of us average types?

[SeanC]

Depends what you mean by average, but round my way the average orienteer (if defined as someone who prefers to stay localish) is well catered for;

1. Weekly Kent Night Cup league
2. Monthly Kent Orienteering League
3. Summer FROLICS (London) competition (average orienteers usually needed to make team of 5)
4. Various other club leagues (SOG league, SWELL(?) (Essex) league etc).

and for those willing to travel a bit there are the regional competitions SE League (everyone scores) and SE Galloppen.

Only the occasional district and some local events aren't part of a competition suited to the average orienteer.

Perhaps it's a South East thing, compensating for the terrain with competitions (?). I guess it's not in the BOF committees remit to look at such local competitions, something for clubs to address if they need improving.

BTW, Kent Night Cup 2 at Jeskyns is tommorrow night (Thursday 1st) not on Wednesday 1st as an early flier said incorrectly. See you at The Leather Bottle.

[Scott]

I guess it's not in the BOF committees remit to look at such local competitions

Actually, I think this is one of the things that the proposed BOF Competition Framework is intended to address - offering some guidance to clubs and associations on how local leagues/competitions could be working. It'll be a while before anything comes of it, though.