Event / Course Incentive Schemes

[roadrunner]

I see that the latest Development Committee Minutes (on the BOF web site) give more details of what's being proposed (and will come into effect next year). The "Racing Challenge" is to be based on mins/km alone, with Gold being 12.5, Silver 15 and Bronze 20. To me, this seems to offer an incentive for absolute beginners only: people in many age groups will rapidly progress to achieving Gold standard on the technical courses (at least in some parts of the country), and after this there is nothing - the Championship Badge is to stay based on Level 1 events, so will only appeal to the very best in each age group and require a lot of travel. Other issues are that the standard will be harder to achieve in the more technical parts of the country, and that it takes no account of age - which seems strange in a sport that claims to appeal to a wider age range than most.

When I started orienteering - more than 20 years ago now - we had the colour-coded scheme (age independent) and the badge scheme (age related), plus a ranking list that included a good many events. While all of these had their flaws, from a personal point of view I found they offered a good progression, right from Green colour-coded (there was no Light Green then) through to M45 Gold many years later. While I can see the virtue of some of the benefits they're claiming for the new approach, it does seem to be a step backward in many ways. What does anyone else think?

[Slowtochide]

Can't see the value of any scheme based purely on mpk myself. I live in the South East and would be the first to admit that blasting around flat mature pine forest on Esher Common is a world away in speed from struggling up steep technical slopes in the Lake District. Seems like an arbitrary pat on the head rather than something with any meaning

[SeanC]

I can see that the potential benefit of a mins/k formula would be that (so long as the course lengths are known) the BOF supercomputer could spit out the award times instead of the organising club. If the award is aimed primarily at beginners then they are unlikely to be travelling far out of the region. South East Gold might have a lower value than Scottish Gold but only if we were trying to compare beginners in different regions.

Perhaps if the award is aimed at beginners, the name "racing challenge" isn't quite right? Though I can't think of an alternative.

Perhaps the members of the development committee who are frequent posters here could enlighten us a little more on the thinking.

When people get keen there's lots of things to measure progress, local leagues, regional leagues/gallopen, the super new ranking list (?), or just comparing against experienced orienteers.

[NeilC]

If "adjusted" course lengths are used - ie taking account of climb - then this might level out the regional differences a bit.

If not it will open up the whole "who can run which course at the Yvette Baker trophy" debate again. Similar quality runners from the Lakes will be able to run down whereas those from East Anglia won't.

I wonder if Junior Competitions Group were consulted on these proposals. Rules group certainly weren't.

[distracted]

The new incentive schemes are intended as exactly that - incentives for participation/improvement - and hence are in no way based on competition - note that to achieve either the navigation or racing challenge awards it does not matter how well you do relative to others.

Yes, they are solely aimed at newcomers/improving orienteers, to act as an initial encouragement to continue with the sport. The racing challenge is not intended to act as a measure of anything to do with competition - Yvette Baker eligibility etc - because it is not aimed at this part of the orienteering populace.

In answer to some of the other points made:

Why should Junior Competitions be worried about something that isn't a competition?

Why should Rules Group be worried about something which sits completely independently on top of the existing structure?

Why should it matter to an incentive that there are regional differences when it is purely a tool to measure your own improvement, not a compare against others measure?

If any other group should have an input, I'd say it would be Coaching...

Seemingly unbeknown to most - the majority of you on these boards are concerned with competition and not incentives. Your measures of progress are ultimately against other people (as were the old colour-coded/badge schemes). This is where the competition framework/structure review comes in and you will be asked for your views on what you want in the coming months.

So in summary, you shouldn't be concerned about whether you personally could achieve a gold racing challenge in your area because this system isn't aimed at you.

[Scott]

Aye, but there are quite a few people on here who were interested in the old badge schemes. I think they are allowed to be concerned at a piecemeal approach which has seen that that competition(/incentive - I still don't understand why the two have to be mutually exclusive) apparently abolished and a big gap left behind, especially with the ranking list still in limbo. Vague promises that it will be filled at some point in the future (but don't hold your breath - there's yet another review to undertake first) are all very well, but in the meantime the whole system is a bit of a mess.

[greywolf]

but there are quite a few people on here who were interested in the old badge schemes

.
Just out of interest, who did care about badge & colour schemes? is there any info on what proportion of orienteers ever claimed their badges or whatever it was you did? can't say i've ever taken the slightest bit of notice of them....

I think they are allowed to be concerned at a piecemeal approach which has seen that that competition(/incentive - I still don't understand why the two have to be mutually exclusive) apparently abolished and a big gap left behind,

Or maybe the two have been merged? If you go to the results page for last Sundays SOL race at Dalnamein http://www.rstrain.ndtilda.co.uk/results_09/sol4/ and click on "Badge Times" you get a list of colour standards

[NeilC]

Why should Junior Competitions be worried about something that isn't a competition?

Because the (current) incentive scheme is incorporated into the rules of one the competitions that they oversee.
The loss/change to the current system does affect other rules,regulations and competitions within BOF. Might have been nice to have considered these before the new system was approved.

[Scott]

Just out of interest, who did care about badge & colour schemes? is there any info on what proportion of orienteers ever claimed their badges or whatever it was you did?

No. Evidence from the associations (for the old colour-coded awards) and from the guy who distributed the old regional badges was that very few people actually bothered claiming their badges, but that doesn't necessarily equate to very few people being interested in the system. (As a punterish M21 I used to use the gold badge standard as something to aim for and the silver standard as the benchmark for a decent run, but would never have bothered actually claiming a badge. However, given the lack of any research/evidence I'd be prepared to accept that I was unusual.)

[Becks]

[greywolf]

brilliant!

[distracted]

Becks - I hope you sewed all of those on yourself

Neil - I'm sure you're aware the old badge scheme disappeared at the beginning of the year with the event restructuring? A change to the Yvette Baker criteria was always going to be necessary, hence this on the British Orienteering website a fortnight ago:

Yvette Baker Gold Times 2009

With the change in the event structure Junior Competitions Group have agreed that the course eligibility criteria for gold times for 2009 will be 1 gold time at any Level 1 event

The new schemes introduced by Development committee are in no way related to any previous or existing scheme - even if some of the terminology remains the same, it is NOT designed as a replacement for the old colour/badge schemes and is not being advertised as such.

There is no competitive element in the new scheme - it is designed to recognise participation and competence. 'Competitive incentives' should be within the remit of the competition structure/framework - something that I recommend everyone should comment upon and throw ideas at when the consultation happens in the next few months.

So, apart from requiring an additional line in the relevant event guidelines saying that the scheme exists, it stands alone. There's certainly no need for rules group to take this idea and destroy the principles that it has been created upon, as has been the case for other recent changes...

[NeilC]

Neil - I'm sure you're aware the old badge scheme disappeared at the beginning of the year with the event restructuring?

I have actually no idea what has happened or will be happening. I was under the impression that Development committee were looking at all the incentive schemes except the rankings.

Are you saying that the old Championship/Gold/Silver/Bronze etc system will still apply to Level 1 events so that the new YBT rule is OK for next year?

The colour awards are going though? Or are they staying? Clubs are still awarding them this year, and my club's badge secretary is still handing them out to grateful juniors.

Nice to see that RG are still being blamed for messing up the event structure reorganisation. Or did you have something else in mind?

Saturday should be fun.

[Scott]

As far as I can tell, this is the situation:

• Championship badges (don't know about G/S/B) will continue to be awarded for performances at L1 events as previously.
• The old age-class Badge scheme (at C1-C3) has been rendered non-functional now that people aren't running in their age classes at L2 events.
• The impression I got (having been at the Development Committee meeting) is that the new scheme is (for the moment) replacing both the old colour-coded awards and the old age-class badge scheme - certainly it seems to have been discussed with Chris Boycott as a replacement for the age-class badges.
• Other more "competitive" (possibly age-class) awards/badges/special hats may be introduced after the Competition Framework review thing is finished (sometime in 2010).
• The Ranking List is stuck in some sort of software-development limbo due to the new results database needing to be compatible with roughly a gazillion different file formats.
• I have no idea what is happening to the old (new) junior ageless badge scheme.

but if anybody knows that some of that is wrong, please feel free to correct me.

Saturday is shaping up to be very entertaining indeed. I'm bringing popcorn.

[Big Jon]

If the scheme really is as basic as mins/km then there aren't going to many people getting badges in Deeside. Speeds in forests range from 4mins/km to 10mins/km - for top runners. Choosing an arbitrary figure seems a little naive!