White Rose

[Gross]

Not having been at the White Rose I can't comment on the quality / standard of the maps. But reading Catfish's comments leads me to think that many of the issues he raises are not mapping issues but planning / controlling issues.

One control had 3 depression nearby but not on the map - controlling issue
One control was in light green and not white - controlling issue

and so on.......

But the vast majority of posters (including Catfish) enjoyed the WR weekend - which is what Bank Holiday weekend in August is all about

Congrats to EBOR

PS - for Tullie - how many people did we get in your mini on the way back from the pub?

[EddieH]

I wasn't there and have no idea what Catfish's complaints are. However there is often a problem with people's expectation of what they'll see at a vegetation boundary. IMO a colour change without black dots is NO indication that there will be a clear boundary, and should ALWAYS be treated with caution.

I remember people complaining when I placed a control in white, going downhill with green beyond it. In reality the slope slowly changed from runnable to less so with no obvious boundary, and certainly no change in runnability where there was a vague change in the forest higher up the hill. Too many people assumed that this vague line was the colour change on the map, but the contours told you otherwise. I was aware of the situation and considered it okay as did the controller. One or two will have left convinced the map was rubbish ....

[Homer]

This year was my first White Rose since some time in the early 1990's. I gave up on it when the organisers made it clear that young single people there to enjoy themselves for the weekend weren't welcome.

Since then, I've turned middle aged and had kids myself. Bart and Lisa so enjoyed the weekend that I suspect we will now have to come back every year...
I was very impressed with the organisation and the range of activities on offer. I can't comment on the quality of the maps as I didn't compete in the foot-O myself. However from those I spoke to, I gather they weren't perfect but were good enough. Afterall, orienteering in North Yorkshire in August shouldn't be taken too seriously; the undergrowth seriously affects fairness. On that subject, I would be interested to hear from the organisers on the policy of balanced start times. This is a good idea, but it didn't seem to be applied equally across the board.

Thanks EBOR for a fun weekend.

[seabird]

Not having been at the White Rose I can't comment on the quality / standard of the maps. But reading Catfish's comments leads me to think that many of the issues he raises are not mapping issues but planning / controlling issues.

One control had 3 depression nearby but not on the map - controlling issue
One control was in light green and not white - controlling issue

As controller maybe I can comment.

Re the depressions if approached from any reasonable attack point on a good bearing Catfish would not have found the unmapped depressions. There were good and unambiguous attack points leading to all the depressions used as control sites, none more than 80m away from the other in this particular area. And these are not small depressions we are talking about. They were all deep and very wide. Neither planner nor controller had encountered the extra depressions until Catfish did his surveying, and neither had the current or previous mapper! The depressions he encountered (or at least the one I subsequently encountered) were also very close (50m) to a very obvious open area which gave the possibility of easy relocation. It is the nature of depressions in hard to run woodland that some will never be found until some unfortunate misplaced orienteer stumbles on them. I'm sorry to have to say it, but I suspect Catfish's problems were a matter of not particualrly good orienteering technique (and possibly knowledge).

I think this can be further illustrated by his comment about a depression in the light green strip rather than the white strip. Catfish is talking about a control in an area with the direction of run symbol, and misinterpreting that symbol.

It is not the controllers or planner task to re-survey the area (although we did our fair share of that!) It is to make sure that the key information that the runner will require to find their control is reliable.

Yes the map was not the best in places; some key areas were much improved by Matt Speake. In defence of the professional mapper, I have seen several maps produced by professional mappers over the years which have struggled to accurately reflect vegetation and runnability in North Yorkshire Forests. As an amateur mapper, I know they would stretch my abilities and available time. I suspect that there was an issue of underbidding here. If you want a perfect map you are likely to need a much higher entry fee, to offset the necessary mapping costs, i.e. time required. I think the WR hit the right compromise, despite the problems that the initial draft presented.

It is the nature of the forest that some people will make big mistakes and struggle to recover. Winning times were good, but throughout most courses there was a reasonably wide spread of times, suggesting the importance of technique and running strength. By and large the people you expect to do well - did well.

From the majority of comments I heard and the smiling faces I saw, not to mention the positive comments here, the courses were well received. The very experienced planner of the regional events made excellent use of the area in my opinion. Most people recognised the courses were challenging and physical but fair. The considerably younger planner of the Team Score also got the balance right for a fun race. A planner to watch for in the future.

And I loved the extra races that I was not involved in, except as a competitor. Well done Ebor. It was a privilege to be part of your weekend.

[seabird]

This year was my first White Rose since some time in the early 1990's. I gave up on it when the organisers made it clear that young single people there to enjoy themselves for the weekend weren't welcome.

It always used to strike me that the "alleged" noise problem of old was not so much youth but middle-aged parents yacking long into the night (more often than not about their child-rearing skills!)

This year my point was proved. At somewhere around midnight on Saturday night I and my companions, all adults of various degrees of longevity, were asked very politely by a fellow, and in my case, much younger, camper to desist from our alcohol fuelled conversation.

At 60+ you get a peverse delight when something like this happens.

Of course we immediately complied with the request.

And, of course, apologies to the people we disturbed.

[graeme]

Just out of interest, how often does truly outstanding orienteering mapping get praised?

Certainly map-praising happens a lot at events: its nice to speak to the mapper personally, but I wouldn't bother posting such comments here because there's nothing unusual about great mapping (in Scotland anyway ).

But then again, almost every map I have made has had nice people telling me how good it is - when I know perfectly well it is full of problems. As a mapper, it's far more useful to be told how to improve, and as an organiser its useful to know where any remap should concentrate its effort.

You'll see when the results of the 6-day survey come in.
http://freeonlinesurveys.com/rendersurv ... oe25633877

... and its not only dodgy M45s at the White Rose who have troubles interpreting vegetation....

So, when I approached the 5th control of the race (nr 112), I was in full control. But it would have been nicer if I would have seen the same thing than the mapmaker here. I was standing for more than 2 minutes with no idea where to look for the control - first time I got such feeling in a WOC race.

(yes, I was also out mapping at the weekend - but it's not a holiday )

[Mrs H]

Oh bugger! I've just seen the relay results if only my team had entered ad hoc we'd have beaten Madmikes into third place and got mug.

[madmike]

what

Edit: now checked the results

In fairness you'd have been 2nd and we'd have been third - we'd still have a mug. Nonetheless I blame my team mates for poor planning and being late going back for a control I'd missed out.

[Mrs H]

Well there must have been a good reason why you hard men were beaten by a middle aged woman a 17 year old boy and a pensioner! Any way I thought you lot were good at logistics. We only came fifth in the one woman class and didn't get a mug. Must remember not to take on JennyJ and Canadian internationals! See you on London for a race off!

[Catfish]

As controller maybe I can comment.

Re the depressions if approached from any reasonable attack point on a good bearing Catfish would not have found the unmapped depressions. There were good and unambiguous attack points leading to all the depressions used as control sites, none more than 80m away from the other in this particular area. And these are not small depressions we are talking about. They were all deep and very wide. Neither planner nor controller had encountered the extra depressions until Catfish did his surveying, and neither had the current or previous mapper! The depressions he encountered (or at least the one I subsequently encountered) were also very close (50m) to a very obvious open area which gave the possibility of easy relocation. It is the nature of depressions in hard to run woodland that some will never be found until some unfortunate misplaced orienteer stumbles on them. I'm sorry to have to say it, but I suspect Catfish's problems were a matter of not particualrly good orienteering technique (and possibly knowledge).

Of course you are right, a bearing from the start flag through the lone depression check bearing on to the control point. However I got shreddded by going through a white hashed area on day one, so I thought better of it and followed the track to the big depression and took a bearing from there to my control. unfortunately my technique or the underfoot conditions let me down and thats where I came across the rather large depression that was not on the map. I looked up and saw the clearing to the east of me and realised where I was. At that stage a competitor in the top 3 of the one of classes on the short brown course asked where I thought I was I told him at a depression not marked on the map but opposite the tip of the open area, I then said I was going directly north and should find the depression, he said as I was leaving that he had already done that, to which I left anyway. I can assure I then found a least 2 more depressions of equal size that were not on the map. I did find the control eventually and certainly had no problem with controls 2 and 3 which I thought were mapped correctly. I can assure there were more than a few competitors struggling in the area of my first control, perplexed by the additional depressions.



As I said I enjoyed the weekend, won my WR Mug as an individual and will more than likely enter another WR in the future. Enough said on my part.


Yes, SYO Member, I did the same today and had to miss the White Rose this weekend, mapping for our SE Middle Distance Champs in Kent next weekend. I hope that Catfish doesn't come because I know that the map is not perfect! (and I'm not being paid) Everyone else welcome.

Dave,

I afraid I cant make but I hope your comment wont stiffle anybody that has good or bad word about the SE weekend!!

Free speach is so refreshing

[SeanC]

Just out of interest, how often does truly outstanding orienteering mapping get praised?

There are awards organised through BOF for a few mappers. Can't remember the names but I think DaveK got one a few years ago for an earlier map of Blean (Sunday's venue).

[Gross]

Just out of interest, how often does truly outstanding orienteering mapping get praised?

There are awards organised through BOF for a few mappers.

Just coz they get a BOF award it doesn't make it an outstanding bit of mapping The map might look pretty though

[SeanC]

Ah yes, I think the award was for cartography?? which must be more practical to judge.

Must be helped by the area. Blean being 90% white runnable , unlike other Kent forests that are full of ugly green bits.

[EddieH]

Well done Sean - you are pushing hard for punters. I'm afraid it's a bit far for me

[SeanC]

ha ha - it's the neighbouring club. I expect free entry.