Ordnance Survey offers free use of map data

[Gnitworp]

An important reason why pros can become good is that they have put in a lot of mapping hours, provided those hours have been used developing correct, accurate techniques. If an amateur has put in as many hours, there's no reason why they should not produce as good maps as the professional. Indeed, they may even be more likely to, because they will not learn how to skimp to ensure being commercial. There's no substitute for experience whatever the circumstances under which it is gained

[Spookster]

In this case being amateur can actually be an advantage since they can afford to spend longer on making the map than a pro can.

Maybe, but if an amateur mapper spends all that extra time surveying and drawing lots of extra detail that shouldn't be on the map, and makes it too hard to read at race speed, then this isn't true.

[Gnitworp]

He may of course spend the extra time getting the same amount of detail more accurately and consistently represented.

[mharky]

With a pro, they (should) have to make a good map to continue getting business. On the other hand, if you only give them a couple of quid then they will hand you back a couple of quid's worth of map.

Amateurs have no financial incentive to make good maps so if it starts raining you might expect to find them in the nearest pub; fortunately there are many of them who do it for the love of the sport and to "give something back"

I after a major race everyone should give the map a rating from 1-5. Obviously, the crap people who made mistakes because they are crap will give it a 1, but hopefully if everyone gives it a rating then you'll get an accurate scores.

I think the 3 important things about mapping are accuracy, detail, readability

if seen spot on maps that are just ugly to read, and beautiful maps that are just wrong

[Nails]

Interesting thread Marky.

I've been asked a number of times to update maps. In my opinion 95% required a full re-map. I would reckon that 95% of maps in the UK are probably based on a previous map, of which most were inherently flawed (if only due to accuracy in OS standards).

I myself and I know of other 'pro' mappers (not calling myself that as I prefer to spend more time than the money is worth) who won't update a map.

Unfortunately 95% of orienteers cannot tell whether the map or their technique is wrong.
And even more unfortunate its the same 95% who are sitting on comittees and considering how to spend their club funds.

New maps not updates....

[Red Adder]

Frankly I am astounded by Mharky's nasty and uncalled for attack on "amateur" mappers. In my experience most are pretty competent or better. Without their efforts there would be far fewer maps available and so even less of the sport, and what's more events would be far more expensive.

Its not surprising its getter harder to find helpers that are vital to keep orienteering going when you get people who seem to love attacking the honest endeavours of others.

[Gross]

There are not many mappers (professional or otherwise) in the UK that are capable of producing an accurate orienteering map of technical terrain.... there are many who produce usable maps of non-technical terrain (i.e. most of UK).

I've just been looking at maps of next year's Fin5.... now that's technical stuff!

[SeanC]

Mharky and Nails are you primarily thinking about level 1 and 2 events? If so, doesn't the controller have the power to define the map as unsuitable and downgrade the event if it doesn't come up to scratch?

I sit on a club committee that decides on venues. There are many other factors affecting the choice of venue for a local event apart from the map quality. Which areas will give us more newcomers? Are we distributing our local events evenly across our catchment area? Have we been to that area "too often" recently? Land access fees and other costs? What else the area has to offer (cafe, parking, playgrounds, toilets etc)? Sometimes areas with imperfect maps are chosen to balence these interests, but don't get a full update due to time/money constraints. We could always be more strategic - perhaps abandoning some areas that are less useful to us so that we can concentrate our mapping resources more effectively. These are hard discussions though - everyone has different opinions.

When competing at these events, I sometimes find myself not trusting the map, and choosing conservative routes using more reliable features. This doubtless doesn't help my technique, but I don't have the time/motivation to travel to regional events very often and these imperfect local events are keeping me in the sport.

[EddieH]

SeanC everything you say makes sense (although I can remember only 1 occasion where a controller has downgraded an event because of the map).

It is sad however when a really good area (and we have several up here) is given to "the cheapest quote" regardless of what is likely to result. The imperfections are likely to remain forever, and with my committee hat on I can see just why - when we have a "serviceable map how can we justifying to paying from a new one from scratch.

I can think of on class A+ area in particular within 100 miles wih a professionally produced map that has a quarter of the area which is unusable barr a few basice sites.

[Gross]

I can think of on class A+ area in particular within 100 miles wih a professionally produced map that has a quarter of the area which is unusable barr a few basice sites.

That must be a WOC99 map

[geomorph]

Late as usual to the thread but.....

great idea Mharky.
The COM (Certified Orienteering Mapper, grades 1 through 3).

Who would not vote in the AGM for a structure that creates a certification process (training and examination) and the quality assurance capabilities to back it up, and of course the budget appropriation to go with it with the aim of revenue neutral in say 5 years.

Flying-in continental mappers (who meet the quality standards), to produce, audit and transfer skills, can only help raise overall standards and helps to bridge short term gaps where they exist.

And as argued by several, we need to get the contours/topography to the highest level, and to do that requires up front investment, cash and/or time and skill. Hopefully once you have a top level map (is that 1 or 3?) then annual/regular upgrades actually take much less effort because trust/confidence ensures speed on the ground.

So, what's it worth.... how much extra on the cost of an event, £2,3,4???
Can a club really afford it without support from Region/BO.
Should the profit share ratio of the premier events be altered such that the additional costs associated with such standards be deducted from the BO portion?
Would you pay extra Region/BO annual fees to help finance this or should it be re-couped on a participation basis
Remember there are lots of complaints already about centralised costs.

[andy]

great idea Mharky.
The COM (Certified Orienteering Mapper, grades 1 through 3).

Who would not vote in the AGM for a structure that creates a certification process (training and examination) and the quality assurance capabilities to back it up, and of course the budget appropriation to go with it with the aim of revenue neutral in say 5 years.

Absolutely not. Who on earth wants more beaurocracy created by 'training' and 'examinations'...

It needs to be kept simple and the onus mustn't be placed upon the mapper (for example an experienced panel who decide the quality of a map)

[mharky]

Well that is how it is at the moment and it doesn't work. There are hundreds of crap maps out there.

How many new amateur mappers download and read the IOF specifications before they start? I'm guessing most of them just draw a map using their own knowledge and the OCAD symbol set. I've seen loads of "sprint" maps that aint to IOF specification.

Other sports don't allow high-level competition to take place unless the equipment or competition playing space matches official specifications. Sure, we can play football in the park with a ball we got from the service station. But you can't have an official match. Orienteering should be the same.

[Red Adder]

Come on then Mharky - if there are so many poor maps out there lets have you naming all these areas and bad mappers. Nothing like a bit of libel to enliven a slow afternoon.

[mharky]

Edinburgh Old Town