Elite and Age Class Sprints

[greywolf]

From the Summary of the BOF Board Meeting 9th July:

"At the request of Events Committee the Board considered the strategic approach to staging future BOC Elite and Age Class sprint events. It was decided unanimously that from 2011 these events should be held at the same venue on the same date."

IMHO a good thing....womder if every one else agrees?
I would assume (though it doesn't say this) that there will be a single Sprint and Middle BOC weekend...and if they were feeling really radical it could be in the autumn and relieve some fixture congestion in the late spring / early summer (urban/park sprints aren't too bothered by seasonal vegetation issues, and middle is more flexible in terrain demands than long - well at least a lot more areas are big enough for middle!)

[Homer]

On balance, no I don't agree.

I would prefer two quality weekends:
Bristish Elite Sprints/ British Elite Middles (in spring?)
British Age Class Sprints/ British Age Class Middles (in autumn?)

It will be interesting to see what format MEG come up with for the combined event.
I believe it will be very difficult to find something which both fairly determines the British Champion in each age class and the overall British Champion.

[EddieH]

I tend to agree with Greywolf, although I'd be very happy with Homer's plan.

Whatever it is 1000% better than the current absurdity which if sustained ensures that neither sprint nor middle has a chance of becoming a seriously rated by the vast majority of older competitors (i.e. the vast majority of orienteers).

[SJC]

I'm definetly in the Homer camp.
Two quality weekends:
Bristish Elite Sprints / British Elite Middles in spring.
British Age Class Sprints / British Age Class Middles in autumn.

I suspect that at a combined event competitors will be forced to choose between running in the Elite class or in their own age class. Hence any attempt to fairly determine the British Champion in each age class, and the overall British Champion, is likely to fail due to a number of the top non-M21s choosing to run in the Elite race.

[EddieH]

This has always been the case with the long champs (even the World Masters has some serious competitors running lower age classes).

At the forthcoming Scottish sprints classes 18 to 40 will all be combined on a single course. Thus the hope is people will enter their age class and still be competing against the elite.

I know this does not solve the 45's and up that wish to run the top course, but it is a decision they have aways had to and always will have to make.

[Homer]

Does the Scottishh Sprint Champs have qualifying heats and finals?

This it what makes it particularly difficult to come up with a fair system. I much prefer the two race format myself and suspect a single race would be far less attractive to most.

[mharky]

I think it would be good for the majority of sprint races to have heats/finals, even if the numbers are low and all the hears do is decide the start order for the final. It makes things a bit more exciting, you get 2 races for you petrols worth and it makes the sport seem a lot more professional to the outside world.

[graeme]

Very very stupid.

Have they considered format? No
Have they considered date? No
Are the elites or the age group having to give up their format? Don't know.

Me, I just decided unanimously that from 2011 we'll have world peace. So that's sorted then. Someone else can worry about the details.

[mharky]

What do you mean by format. The only change in format would be having heats or not. What would anyone be giving up?

There is only 1 fixed event in the British calender, and that's the JK at easter. BOC has never been fixed, so why is it a problem you don't know when the sprints and middles are gonna be held next year.

They only problems I can see is the fact that the top vets will run up to the elite, and thus not win their own races, as has been mentioned. And also if it is an open championships then it will be obliged to revolve around all the regions. Not a problem for sprints, and shouldn't be so much of a problem for middle.

[DJM]

Have they considered format? No

How on earth do you know what has and hasn't been considered?

Have they considered date? No

How on earth do you know? And anyway, the date and format seem to me to be totally independent of one another!

Are the elites or the age group having to give up their format? Don't know

My guess is that all groups will have a qualification heats plus finals format.

What I do know is that a massive amount of consideration has been given to this issue so far and, now that a combined model has been decided upon, the business of finalising the format can begin.

[Spookster]

Very very stupid.

Have they considered format? No
Have they considered date? No
Are the elites or the age group having to give up their format? Don't know.

You're right, we didn't consider any of that, and nor did we seek input from key people including Events committe who have spent a lot of time discussing it - we just tossed a coin...

When the full Board meeting minutes are published you'll see more reasoning behind the decision. But I don't expect that'll change your personal view.

[EddieH]

No Homer, unfortunately the Scottish sprints will not have heats - the area we are using is very high quality for a sprint race, but is not very big. A final would be running around the same area all over again.

There is however an INVOC event on Anagach the next day, and for those who are abl to stay on a RAFO event on Roseisle on Monday morning.

[roadrunner]

How come the issue of separate elite and age-class events seems to be so much more contentious with sprints that it used to be with long/classic races? For years we had ONE British Champs (including the elites), and there didn't seem to be many complaints: AFAIK the elite champs were separated initially because of concerns about the quality of the area rather than the desire to have two events.

[The Loofa]

Good decision by the Board.
Much as the idealist in me fancies 2 good weekends, the Board have been pragmatic and see one as more practical.

Now for the subsidiary issues - date and format.

date - please in the spring. O needs a defined competition season to present itself to the outside world and that ahs to be spring. I've always considered anything in the autumn can't be important and that's why i want to see CSC final back into the spring.

Format. I have an idea here that i'd like to propose that keeps the elite format and still produces age group champions without anyone having to choose what they are running beforehand. This could of course be done simply (as at Nottingham) by giving the prize to the highest placed person in each age group, but I suggest another way.

1) Run all heats and A finals as they are now at the elite champs.
2) An M35 in the A final or a W18 in women's A becomes that age group champion. If there's more than one the A final result decides
3) (the tricky bit) - place people in the B C D finals by a combination of age group and heat position
e.g.
B final contains top x% of 18,20 35,40 plus some non-qualifying 21s (still 60 runners in it)
C final contains top x% of 16 45 50 55 plus some non-qualifiers from faster classes
D final etc

and the x%?
fairly small I think to be consistent with elite of making qualifying not a formality
say x=20 for biggest age classes
x<50 wherever possible
accept that x may =100 for W70/75

Organisers to decide x (i.e. number of qualifiers) based on entries received within given guidelines

Any thoughts on that?

[mharky]

Working out who is the British Champion shouldn't be "tricky",

How about a nice simple system; the winner of the 21 is the 21 champion, the winner of the 35 is the 35 champion. If you want to run up, run up.

Håkan Eriksson got WOC sprint silver at the age of 43, they didn't give him a WMOC gold medal though....

Hanny Alson got WOC sprint gold at the age of 20, they didn't give her a JWOC gold though (she had to settle for silver in that one)