maps before the start

[EddieH]

Thank you Marco Polo although I've no idea who you are!

But it's true I don't coach and indeed I think I've forgotten how to orienteer - I just do it.

[AndyC]

so Eddie -you have a complete novice adult who has no idea where they are and you're not going to help them at all?

you then have one potential future orienteer who won't return. Note if they're lost they have probably already lost enough time that they are no longer describable as "competitive" and we've already had pointed out that "getting to the finish" is a valid success criteria for beginners

BTB I take it you would still be willing to join the search party when they haven't found their way home before darkness?

[frog]

I'm happy to help anyone who is lost and upset. My son got lost in the relays and when he had reorientated himself then helped a couple of kids who he said were crying because they were lost and worried about letting down their teams.
He used to ask others for help before he got the confidence to relocate himself.
It is only a game, even at the elite level.
He knew never to ask anyone going fast for help though.

[Scott]

We has a short thread about this eighteen months ago (although I honestly thought it was more recently than that - how time flies ).

[Snail]

awk wrote:
One halfway house might be a system I've seen abroad, where youngsters get their maps when they get in the start lane, rather than on the start line. Just gives time to settle down and sorted out before the rush against the clock. Still doesn't deal with the vagaries of planning standards, but does help with the children setting themselves up sensibly.

I think this is the way to go, and have both seen it done in this country and (as controller) recommended it to regional event organisers. Making maps available in advance was never originally intended to let parents discuss possible difficult parts of the course. Rather the main aim was to avoid the situation where novices are tempted to rush off when the clock beeps - because that's what everyone else does - before looking properly at their map. Maps in the start lane for these competitors addresses this, as awk sets out above.

It should also inhibit competitors on other courses from perusing the White / Yellow maps to work out / discuss where the first few controls might be once they know the Start location. (Although probably wouldn't deter those competitors I saw at our Compass Sport cup match this year, who brazenly entered the Start box early to examine the White / Yellow maps, then exited to await their call-up time )

[graeme]

When shadowing at the six-day I didn't have to help my son, in fact I hardly saw him because so many children were asking me for help.
He was rather cross to be deemed noncompetitive while those who had received my help were not...

[EddieH]

My point exactly Graeme. Clearly there are situations where it is appropriate to help children and it really is difficult to assess when. I certainly don't think it is appropriate for children to just ask as soon as they are doubtful - they should be being shadowed when at the stage they need this.

And AndyC you are right - I very rarely help people, and never adults. There are hundreds that will. I find children never ask me, and nearly all adults that do it is inappropriate and annoying - "Are you looking for number **" - really a case of "let's pool our knowledge.

It is generally only abroad that people ask agressively, usually at a control. That used to anger me and spoil my concentration, but nowadays I manage to ignore it.

And AndyC as I've said earlier there are those that will give up as soon as they are not successful who won't stay in the sport anyway. Anyone with the determination to stick at the sport won't be lost because they fail to complete an event (and in any case there are plenty of people who will tell them).

Further: my partner is a slow very average orienteer. She is very interested in her position and never asks for help. It bothers me that she sometimes comes last having made a big mistake when I know full well that she has been beaten by rivals that think "oh well I won't affect the results - I'll just ask". This is partcularly galling when she just misses out on qualifying at WMOC when for certain many above her will have asked where they are.

[SJ]

It's got to be a matter of common sense.

As an adult and sadly massively inconsistent and frequently lost orienteer, I am hugely grateful for those people who point out where I am after I've been wandering around in circles for 20 minutes and am contemplating going to the finish on some desperate safety bearing.

However, I would never consider asking for help unless I was seriously lost and undoubtedly going to come last by a considerable margin (this happens regularly). I would not ask someone who looked in a hurry, nor would I ask in a sprint race where for everyone, seconds have proportionally more of an impact, nor would I ask in a race where my result might have a vague impact on someone else (eg, if I weren't very obviously last or when I ran in the FCC cup races).

Graeme wonderfully put in the last thread, "For me, helping someone to enjoy their experience in the woods outweighs being unfair to someone else in the results."

I really hope this is the attitude that others have, (although if I ask for help it is not going to get me ahead of someone else in the results and maybe the risk of this in general is low? Particularly for adults). For me, the opportunity to be corrected midway through my course and then be able to have a go at the rest of my course is great as it is extra, much needed training. I ask for help rarely (and only in Sweden!!) and feel less of an achievement for doing so, but for me it means I can enjoy my sport a little more. Perhaps I should stumble through broken Swedish to declare myself non-comp, but I don't think they'd understand why I deemed it necessary when I came trailing at the back anyway.

As for giving help - I go on the trusting assumption that if someone asks for help, they are desperate and will have a better experience after being told where they are, so I give them help. I have had my map snatched off me by adults before, which isn't a nice experience, but most people who ask for help are courteous and/or crying children. I hope the help I've given them has meant they were able to find the rest of the controls on their course and improve their orienteering overall - I'd like to think that's the case for me.

[EddieH]

I just don't get it. This sport is about navigating as fast as you can. Doing the course as fast as you can without doing the navigating bit is not IMHO completing the course. When I was less experienced I occasionally spent about an hour relocating and with time it has reduced so that I rarely spend too long, (although in the Deeside Night League 2008 I spent about 30 minutes on a 150m leg!)

Once mamy many years ago someone unsolicited showed me where I was and I felt really bad about it afterwards.

[mharky]

Racing is about doing it as fast as you can. Not everyone at an orienteering event is there to compete, some people take part in sport for enjoyment.

[Londres]

I don't mind helping young children when they are lost and clearly in distress. But, adults should really have the intelligence to work things out for themselves. It is, however, rather irritating when young juniors approach you for help at the slightest hint of uncertainty.

[Roger]

When I'm competing I'm rarely asked for help, even by people who are clearly bursting to ask. (Must be that 'Graeme avatar' mask I downloaded.) On the last occasion, I pointed and panted to the requesting teenager as I ran past "that's the big depression next to the path". Cost me nothing, and maybe provided the vital clue.

If I'm controlling, patrolling or shadowing I get asked much more frequently. And I'll even say "are you OK?" if I spot an uncertain-looking child scratching his or her head at a path junction. But rather than just pointing to the right place, I'll get them to orient the map, point out the significant features around them and then ask whether they can spot on the map e.g. 'three paths coming together with a thicket to the north'.

Treat the disease, not the symptom.

[Bin Man Pete]

It also makes sense that at the hundreds (yeah right) of events in Scotland through the rest of the year...

Just picked up on this - FYI The Gobby One, at least one club in Scotland puts on over 50 events a year and the neighbouring one not far off the same, so hundreds is not an exaggeration. O is a vibrant sport here and doesn't appear riddled with the sort of cynisism evident in some posters' comments (or should that be poster's?).

[mappingmum]

Bin Man Pete, that made me laugh!!