maps before the start

[Denise]

Emailing the organisers because you don't like their decisions is a bit sad. The fact that they actually changed their minds because of 1 email is rediculous.

I emailed them because I genuinely believed that they had got it wrong and I felt it was only right to point it out before it went ahead, for the good of the event, rather than just moaning about it afterwards.

In the past I have planned for the Scottish Champs relays, and know that despite hours of work and various quality checks between planners, controllers and organisers, that genuine mistakes can still creep in.

I don't know if it was my email that changed their minds, and I'm sorry if it could be read in that way. But why should anyone not change their minds because on hearing another persons point of view? That's life and it happens all the time.

Anyway, let's move on. It was the usual high quality Scottish Champs and I look forward to next year.

[RJ]

Since when was M/W10 ever won by the best orienteer? I won the British and JK as an M10 and I was dreadful at orienteering.

No need to be modest!

Once we are clear about why we show them the map before they start, and discuss the problems they will encounter, then perhaps we can consider the championship ruling. Failure is so very important at the early stages of the sport. If the course is made too difficult then more competitors will fail.

The ruling for a championship is OK so long as the controller can guarantee that the technical difficulty is of the correct standard. The only way you can measure that it was right is effectively after the race.... when the mispunchings are examined..... and then the damage is done, and perhaps irreparable.

[graeme]

Reviewing the thread, some comments could be misconstrued by those who weren't there are suggesting that there was a problem with the planning.

So I'd just like to emphasize that the course met all the guidelines just fine. Some of the mps seem to have arisen because children were able to see the next control but one, and went straight there.

Question: if you can see the next control across an open area, is that OK on white and/or yellow? Guidelines seem a little vague here - you're meant to tape, but each tape need only be visible from the previous. So it seems it should be a taped route, but wouldn't need any tapes.

[Scott]

Question: if you can see the next control across an open area, is that OK on white and/or yellow? Guidelines seem a little vague here - you're meant to tape, but each tape need only be visible from the previous. So it seems it should be a taped route, but wouldn't need any tapes.

I'd say yes: a few tapes at least to make sure the kids exit the previous control correctly, and don't continue off down the line feature that they're already on.

Also: fog?

[Mrs H]

Also: fog?

Good point Scott - we actually had that happen at a MADO on the very top of the British Camp once (low cloud) as these were very early days and we had a lot of complete beginners including 42 girl guides doing their district challenge and you couldn't see one tape from the other I actually posted a couple of marshalls up there just to make sure we didn't lose anyone! They all thought it was fabulous fun up there - It looked like Caractacus was going to emerge from the mists at any moment.

[EddieH]

RJ wrote "Failure is so very important at the early stages of the sport."

This is a view held by the majority without question. I think this assumption is worth thinking about. There are kids that will not take failure at anything and just give up. Frankly none of those will ever last in orienteering as some day they will fail.

Learning comes about through coping with failure - constant success doesn't stretch and doesn't bring on development.

We have a large number of youngsters in our club and I am aware, despite the fact that I don't coach them, of most of them making big mistakes. I have never seen that deter them. In particular we have 2 very promising 11 year olds that prefer to run light green, never get to the top of the results and sometimes fail than to run yellow and win. In fact they both ran M12A (orange) at the Scottish and both made a very big mistake without which either of them would clearly have won easily. Both had exactly the right level of frustration with their performance, but even more determination.

If everything is made too easy real prospects like these will get bored and be lost to the sport.

From my experience, (including when I was a teacher,) if a coach is losing large numbers of children after an overplanned event then maybe they are putting the wrong mindset into their charges.

[LostAgain]

[quote="EddieH"]
We have a large number of youngsters in our club and I am aware, despite the fact that I don't coach them, of most of them making big mistakes. I have never seen that deter them. In particular we have 2 very promising 11 year olds that prefer to run light green, never get to the top of the results and sometimes fail than to run yellow and win. In fact they both ran M12A (orange) at the Scottish and both made a very big mistake without which either of them would clearly have won easily. Both had exactly the right level of frustration with their performance, but even more determination.

[quote]

I agree with this sentiment regarding Juniors who chose to run up (Orange+), we certainly enter our kids well above their age level for most events. But this is a choice arrived from our experience, for which we do not expect any quarter to be spared within the guidelines.

The earlier part of the thread refers to M/W10 (White - Yellow), the most basic entry level. In this instance I cannot see any reason why these juniors cannot receive their map beforehand. Several previous threads have highlighted the great variance in technical challenge offered at this level and how variable the courses can be from one event to the next.

[awk]

Learning comes about through coping with failure - constant success doesn't stretch and doesn't bring on development....We have a large number of youngsters in our club and I am aware, despite the fact that I don't coach them, of most of them making big mistakes. ....If everything is made too easy real prospects like these will get bored and be lost to the sport.

This begs the question as to what one (and you) defines as 'failure'. There is a big difference between 'failing' to finish a course, and making a big mistake. Equally, 'failing' to finish a course may only be because one has successfully found 9 out of 10 controls, so is that actually failing?

No doubt some learning comes about through coping with failure, but not an awful lot if it is presented as failure, particularly early on; when one is more robustly involved, then that might be a different matter. But for many at M/W10- that is not the case.

It is well recognised in teaching that many of the issues over boys' learning centre around the problems of dealing with failure avoidance: if a boy can't do something then they will often give up and find something else they can do (an increasing problem, BTW, with the ongoing fetish in this country for trying to teach children to read and write ever earlier, often before they are ready).

By many standards, my early attempts at orienteering were largely 'failure': 51st out of 55 in my first badge event, taking 84mins for 2.8k. But it was presented as 'success': I'd finished (and was the first ever solo competitor from my school). It didn't get much better for quite a while (e.g. 131mins for 3.5k in the 1971 Surrey Schools Champs, but 32nd out of 50 - what on earth was everybody else doing??!). Success was still about finishing - and my positions had improved! - and on the rare occasion that didn't happen, our teacher focused on what we'd done well, and what can we learn from what we didn't. But 'failure' never came into it. Failing was about giving up.....

What I have yet to work out, is what was gained by getting the organisers to change? As far as I can see, not a lot, especially when these are courses that don't, or at least shouldn't, involve route choice. So what if it is a championship? We're talking children under the age of 10 for goodness' sake. As for the argument that they've got to do it eventually - well there's a lot they've got to do eventually, that doesn't mean they should be doing it now.

One halfway house might be a system I've seen abroad, where youngsters get their maps when they get in the start lane, rather than on the start line. Just gives time to settle down and sorted out before the rush against the clock. Still doesn't deal with the vagaries of planning standards, but does help with the children setting themselves up sensibly.

[EddieH]

I don't disagree with either LostAgain or AWK. My comment was purely limited to the assumption that children should never fail.

I too agree that the word failure is an inappropriate one to use.

When Mike Rodgers put on the Moray Schools Festival, there were 2 different really basic courses, then their was an "Elite" course (TD3) which was open for any children who wished to try it after their inter-school competition. This proved very popular with vast numbers wanting to attempt it. For those that didn't get round unaided there was no talk of failure.

[AndyC]

One comment made earlier relates to getting the map at registration being unfair in that some youngsters will have parents that compete and others won't.
Given the community that orienteers; I know that any child needing assistance before, during or after an event has lots of people to call on- at least every orienteer who is a parent (and many others).
It is an unwritten rule that a child "lost" is supported immediately and if that means abandoning your own run...........

(and it doesn't just apply to children)

[EddieH]

QUOTE (and it doesn't just apply to children)

Well don't ask me where you are. or try to tell me if you think I am lost. It is my strong opinion that this sport is about navigation and running. Colluding is cheating, and if you NEED help to find out where you are it should be either in order to find the finish OR you should declare yourself non-competitive.

And I would not consider giving up my run to help anyone that is simply lost - (serious injury is a very different matter).

[awk]

When Mike Rodgers put on the Moray Schools Festival, there were 2 different really basic courses, then their was an "Elite" course (TD3) which was open for any children who wished to try it after their inter-school competition.

Great idea!

[EddieH]

Mike's full of them

[Marco Polo]

We have a large number of youngsters in our club and I am aware, despite the fact that I don't coach them, of most of them making big mistakes.

No need to be so hard on your coaching abilities, Eddie

[Sunlit Forres]

As Eddie H has brought up the subject of Moravian's juniors, here's my take on it. I'm still very new to the game of junior coaching, but I told our youngsters that this was the Scottish Championships and it was their chance to gauge their progress against Scotland's best under championship conditions. Nobody was given any targets except to do their best, enjoy it and to learn from the experience. Those in the 10s classes who weren't ready for the championship-level stuff were advised to do the colour coded (and hence shadowed) courses and that's what they did.

The dad of one of the 'light green' 11 year olds that Eddie mentioned (he's 12 actually Eddie) was all for him doing the M14A but I talked him out of it by saying that a Scottish Champs was not the event at which to run out of class (unless your name's Chepelin). Local events are where you can go and experiment, but this is one of the few events where you orienteer properly, bringing together all the techniques that you've hopefully leant at the little events and put them into practice at proper race speed, under proper race conditions. One of our pre-champs training sessions involved a 6-control 400-metre course which we'd walked round first with the aim of running a 2nd time at full "elite standard" race speed to experience the sort of control flow that you need in order to get on the podium.

Without exeption, all of our 13 juniors at the individuals loved it, despite mixed performances, and the major errors referred to by Eddie have taught them a lesson that no amount of preaching could convey. It was a similar story in the relays, where all 9 of our juniors completed their course, despite a couple of horrendous errors, one of which probably cost a silver medal for one team. Those errors have given us something to work on, and there are a few Moray parents (all quite new to orienteering) that have been avidly studying split times as a result.

The point of what I'm trying to say is that juniors should run under exactly the same conditions as seniors. We spend all year teaching them to orienteer and here's the stage for them to show us what they've learned. Provided organisers offer 'colour coded' options for those kids who aren't quite ready for the age group stuff we keep everyone happy and we can give the youngsters at the top of the leader board the accolades that they so richly deserve.