maps before the start

[frog]

I agree with Awk and Graeme. I think national courses can be quite stressful for young participants and having to do something different with maps to the normal events seems to unnecessaraily make them more so. If the Scottish champs organisers have changed their policy on white and yellow maps because they thought they were going against BOF guidelines then I think BOF have got it wrong.
I don't think a bit of parental help and encouragement before the event at that level is a bad thing. 2 years is a big gap at that age anyway, and if you have an end of year birthday you are more disadvantaged. I getting your map a bit beforehand is a minor advantage compared to being nearly 2 years ahead of your competitors for instance.
Orienteering at this age is never going to be completely "fair" we just have to try and make it enjoyable so they keep coming.

[graeme]

So, course 16, no maps, 9/47 dnf, almost all on one difficult leg rather than giving up part way. The highest failure rate of the event.

3/10 dnf on yellow
4/12 dnf on M10A
1/7 on M12B
1/16 on W12A
0/2 on W12B

Presumably that's not what we want. Do we need to prepare children for the Champs by denying maps before the start at all events?

[RJ]

The rules are written by folk who are older(!), experienced, competent(?) orienteers. I would suggest they have completely forgotten about the first stages of the learning process with younger juniors.

If course planners could guarantee that the technical challenge was at level two for all legs then I doubt it would be necessary for the competitors to see the map beforehand. Seldom is that the case..... therefore there is nothing lost by letting them see the map and have the awkward navigational challenges removed, before they come unstuck out there on the course, trying to solve a problem that is 'just beyond' them.

[Wayward-O]

I note from the Final Details for the MDOC Twin Peaks next weekend that:

You will collect your own map as you leave the Assembly Area, before you start the walk (climb!) to the Start. It will be rolled and secured. You are trusted not to open it until you start. It is YOUR responsibility to take the correct map for your course – the course number will be clearly visible.

I'm sure that at this event it would not be a problem to discuss the map with a novice Junior beforehand, especially as on at least one day the White and Yellow courses are on a different area.

I'll have to remember to take a small knife with me in case they have chosen to use similar labels to those at the JK relays!

[mappingmum]

There are a lot of valid points being made here.

Emphasis has been made on the fact that this is the National Champs and therefore it has to feel different. But I doubt these young juniors even realise it's the "big one". To them, they are just going orienteering again. Another field/forest/course/den-to-build/dam-to-build/friends to play with/picnic-in-the-car/waiting-endlessly-for-Mummy-or-Daddy . Oh yeah - and there's a course to do somewhere inbetween, isn't there?

It's the nature of the sport that every single area is different. Why make it more difficult for them? Let them have the maps at the start and build the confidence and skill levels.

Graeme - you suggest there is one difficult leg? To me; 5-6 is tricky - although a short leg there is no line feature to follow (was it taped?) but also 8-9 looks tricky too - route choice and jumping between the handrails.

[Scott]

There are nine mispunches on course 16 in the results, consisting of:
4 missing control 10
2 missing control 5
1 missing control 3
1 missing control 13 (who was also non-comp)
1 retired between 8 and 9

[Scott]

...and also:
3 who punched control 6 before control 5
3 who punched the white course control which was en route control between 6 and 7
1 who punched an extra control between 4 and 5 (in the small depression south of the line)
2 who punched an extra control between 9 and 10

This last was control 13 on course 11, which was on the easternmost of the three ruins WSW of 10. Which, together with the number of mispunches on control 10, suggests that that might be the problem leg - my guess would be that the oddly angled four-way path junction where you actually have to ignore all four paths and follow the fence/ruined wall might have been the problem...

[graeme]

Graeme - you suggest there is one difficult leg?

Wasn't what I meant to suggest - I meant most children only missed out one control (which normally happens when its difficult, and might be helped by forewarning) as opposed to missing lots (which happens when they get bored/stroppy/tired/cold).

I certainly agree there were several tricky legs.

Graeme

[SJC]

I meant most children only missed out one control (which normally happens when its difficult, and might be helped by forewarning)

That would be the answer if there was just one difficult control. but there appear to have been at least four or five opportunities to make mistakes. Attempting to get all this information into a childs head is likely to give them a nervous breakdown before they even start.

[LostAgain]

I emailed the organisers and they have decided to issue maps after the start.

I trust that you are now still happy with the outcome?
Maybe the officials original idea had merit? Hopefully they will not give in to such mailice in future.

Youngsters should be nurtured at this early level, for goodness sake TD5 - TD4 what are you on?

[Denise]

Yes, I am happy with the outcome - which is that the best children won and they did it all themselves, so congratulations to this years Scottish Champions.

We cannot be certain that there would have been less mp's if parents had been able to discuss the map with their child before the start. There were a few tricky legs which caused mp's for different children. Few of those tricky legs were predictable because what appears simple on a map can often look very different on the ground, and vis versa. The courses were obviously all planned and controlled to the high standards that SOA/BOF expect from a National Level 1 event.

There were 2 mp's on the white and yellow courses from the club where I coach. Neither of those children were upset. Both knew that they had made silly mistakes, which we all do sometimes, but quickly put it behind them and got on with making new friends around the assembly area. They'll be back on Sunday because they are not put off by the experience.

This is the ONLY event in Scotland, out of hundreds that are held throughout the year, where the children are not given maps before the start. And if parents are not confident that their children can make it around the course, then they can shadow them on the colour coded courses. So SOA is still allowing every junior to take part in whatever manner the parent decides is best for their child. And this is exactly the same at the JK and BOC and I haven't heard any complaints about those until I raised this issue.

[mharky]

It makes sense that the Champs are run as such, with the maps given at the start even for the nippers.

It also makes sense that at the hundreds (yeah right) of events in Scotland through the rest of the year maps are issued prior to the start in order to give guidance. after all, how can anyone learn to orienteer if they aint coached.

Emailing the organisers because you don't like their decisions is a bit sad. The fact that they actually changed their minds because of 1 email is rediculous.

[RJ]

It makes sense that the Champs are run as such, with the maps given at the start even for the nippers......

The age class bandings are for TWO years, or ONE in the case of M/W10. Do we really want to exclude those 'new juniors' from their one and only chance of running in a championship race at that age.

The winner will always be the best orienteer, and just because some of the others have had the TD3 sections/legs explained to them doesn't reduce the winner's chances. As I said earlier..... if the planner can guarantee that the challenge is at the right level (TD2!) then OK. Planners and controllers often fall down on this simple idea and assume the increased challenge isn't really there. So, at a championship the controller will always be up to the job.... great! Maps at the start then!

[EddieH]

I would have thought that M/W10s have up to 10 years at that age

[mharky]

They aren't being excluded though, are they. They will have to run a race where they get the map at the start eventually, so why not break them into it rather than having them turn 12 or 14 and then suddenly find out they only get the map at the start.

Since when was M/W10 ever won by the best orienteer? I won the British and JK as an M10 and I was dreadful at orienteering.