Graythwaite Start List

[lakesorunner]

Hi Again

I've removed the Routegadget until I am able to post final results...

Sorry for jumping the gun everyone...

[alcumbria]

By contrast, the JK day 2 & 3 maps were relatively inaccurate, especially with regards to runnability. I crawled on my hands and knees through some "white", later I was able to run at full speed through some "walk". The fastest running seemed to be in those areas given an undergrowth screen for bracken, although you couldn't distinguish the "bracken" undergrowth areas from the "brashing" ones, which were foul, without going there. In short, route choice was a lottery, and the competition therefore unfair, although I expect the best people won anyway.

I Totally agree with the JK maps being inaccurate and I really struggled picking up the green screen on the 1:15000 map.I seemed to spend the first half of day three climbing over under and through fallen trees and brashings. At least I knew that the green on the Graythwaite map was green and made my route choice yesterday to go through.

Thanks to the LOC team for a great event

[Scott]

At least I knew that the green on the Graythwaite map was green

Really? Certainly the dark green that I accidentally strayed into twice was lovely - mature, if somewhat closely packed, conifer, with a clean forest floor and no branches to impede progress. Aside from the odd thicker patch, which was maybe mid-green standard, I was able to run faster in the dark green than I could in the brashed "white" on the way to my first control.

The result of this was that I became very confused the first time I entered it - I'd been relying on it to funnel me on the way from 2-3 on M21L. I would just assume that this was my stupidity at work, but quite a few better orienteers than me seem to have been similarly caught out...

[ruth]

Scott maybe thats because the branches were taller than you...possibly not the case for the majority of M21Ls??

maybe we should add our height onto the entry details and get a specialised map depending on whether or not we;re taller than the branches in each particular bit of forest......

the idea of choosing your map scale is ridiculous - everyone competing against each other should run on the same map. simple.

[SJC]

the idea of choosing your map scale is ridiculous - everyone competing against each other should run on the same map. simple.

Explain !

We choose what type of compass to use; what type of shoes to wear; at most events approximately when we want to start; and even if we want to use a newer, faster, SI card. So why shouldn't we choose the map scale that suits our personal preferences ?

[lakesorunner]

Routegadget is now back up and running (with the correct courses AND the correct times... I think!)
Can those who did their routes already please have another go... - I had to delete the files and start again. Sorry.

The result of this was that I became very confused the first time I entered it - I'd been relying on it to funnel me on the way from 2-3 on M21L. I would just assume that this was my stupidity at work, but quite a few better orienteers than me seem to have been similarly caught out...

Many areas of Many forests which have large blocks of green will have segments of them which aren't 'green', just as there will always be bits of white that shouldn't be. But could you have used a compass/pacing/contours to help you out... rather than relying on an indistinct veg change.

the idea of choosing your map scale is ridiculous - everyone competing against each other should run on the same map. simple.

Like SJC, I would be enlightened as to what makes your choice of map scale ridiculous. At this event, there was a completely free (for most classes) choice of scale (between the 'normal' one, and one scale larger) - if you feel happier on 1:10,000 - choose it.

[seabird]

So why shouldn't we choose the map scale that suits our personal preferences ?

I thought it was very brave of LOC to try this - but it filled me with foreboding that it may become an expectation.

It is just one more complication and thing to go wrong to further stretch already stretched volunteers.

I am not in favour. Much better if the area is complex and the majority of runners want a scale likely to be visually clearer - to take that decision and stick with it for all on the course.

[lakesorunner]

I thought it was very brave of LOC to try this - but it filled me with foreboding that it may become an expectation.

You should have been in the organising club!!!
The main reason you were given a choice, rather than being dictated to, was that at the time the choice was offered, the event was still a National Event, and LOC were doing everything they could to keep it that way. By offering a choice, we hoped that would satisfy Map Group and allow us to retain our event status.
However, I think I can safely say that we will NOT be offering a choice at future events - the extra strain it places on planners, printers, officials, start teams, enquiries, entries, etc. etc., ALL OF WHOM ARE VOLUNTEERS, is HUGE. I would really hope we have not started a trend.
On seabirds point of expectation, after taking the entries and sorting start lists for this event, there are some out there who are expecting way too much from events and it's officials. Can everyone remember it's just a minority sport, being run almost exclusively by volunteers, many of who put in many many hours of work and effort. If we aren't careful, these expectations will kill of the sport completely...

[ruth]

to justify my comment - choosing your own compass/shoes is completely different. the map is the fundamental piece of equipment for orienteering and hence should be consistent among all competitors.
- you can run and orienteering course without a compass (and win WOC gold medals is your name is pasi ikonen) and you can run without O shoes if you want do - but you can't run without a map....

It would NEVER catch on at major events because it is fundamentally a bad idea.

and as for complaining that the unnecessary and in my opinion detrimental addition that you made to your own event was such a burden on the poor volunteers....well who's fault is that!!

[lakesorunner]

and as for complaining that the unnecessary and in my opinion detrimental addition that you made to your own event was such a burden on the poor volunteers....well who's fault is that!!

You seem to have slightly misunderstood (or perhaps I wasn't clear enough)
We have never complained, either publicly, or amongst ourselves, about offering runners a choice of scale. We did complain about not getting our own way and offering a single scale for the each respective course, hence our 'solution'. No, it wasn't ideal, but we tried to offer what we thought was best for the competitors.
And I stand by my comments on the amount of work undertaken by volunteers fully - before belittling the 'poor volunteers', think about it! Without them, you wouldn't have an event. And not just this event, but the next one you go to (in ANY club!!!), and the one after that, and the one after that.................................

[SJC]

It would NEVER catch on at major events because it is fundamentally a bad idea.

Whilst it currently poses an unneccesary burden on the organising club, who is to say that in five years time printing technology won't allow you to turn up and print your map in the start lane. Then everyone could, in theory, choose whatever scale they wanted.

Why is this a fundamentally bad idea ?

i.e. Please can you explain why the map scale must be consistent when it is surely better for everyone to be able to choose the scale best suited to their eyesight.

[mharky]

I'd like a 1:12,500 please

[SJC]

I'd like a 1:12,500 please

Then a 1:12,500 you shall have.

[Scott]

But could you have used a compass/pacing/contours to help you out... rather than relying on an indistinct veg change.

True enough . Still, I stand by the suggestion that the big block of dark green could do with a thorough resurvey - both from personal experience and from what I've heard from others who made similar mistakes, the "nice bits" have a fair amount of unmapped detail in them.

Another minor gripe (on an event that I should say I thoroughly enjoyed): what happened to the drinks station? It was supposed (according to both the final details and the map) to be on the second road crossing, but was actually on the first one. I know I wasn't the only one who passed it by thinking, "Oh, they've put an extra drinks station out, but I think I'll have a drink at the second one instead," and then ended up going thirsty...

Scott maybe thats because the branches were taller than you...possibly not the case for the majority of M21Ls??

maybe we should add our height onto the entry details and get a specialised map depending on whether or not we;re taller than the branches in each particular bit of forest......

Nah, it's fair as it is: I can sneak under branches that would foil the average adult male, but then I struggle through the brashings that the longer-limbed bound effortlessly across.

[ruth]

Then a 1:12,500 you shall have.

you have to be joking...

i.e. Please can you explain why the map scale must be consistent when it is surely better for everyone to be able to choose the scale best suited to their eyesight.

because it is surely better for everyone to also run different length courses dependant on their height or leg length (what i was getting at with the comment about scotts height). It would get utterly ridiculous!

orienteering in Britain is becoming increasingly a hobby and much less a competitive sport, where the best man (yes eyesight included) wins.
come on, the whole idea is just way too unneccesarily convoluted and complicated. give everyone the same map and see who wins.

before belittling the 'poor volunteers', think about it! Without them, you wouldn't have an event

seriously, its quite unbelievable that you think you need to make that comment again - of course i know that - but i'm not the one giving them extra work to do!