JK 2009 Feedback?

[frog]

I think having the control descriptions in the start lane is a bad idea. My son got a bit frantic trying to fit his control description into his widget within the time limit as well. Why can't these be at the beginning of the start so you can sort them out whilst you're hanging around warming up. Having them in the start lane and being forbidden to take them early seems to add an unnecessary complication to the start. I like the 6 days when you can print them out at home and get set up beforehand.

[mappingmum]

I like the 6 days when you can print them out at home and get set up beforehand.

I think Tay 09 will use the "new" system, if the rumours at the end of Spey 07 were correct . . . . But yes, I agree. I hate the stress of "am I going to get it finished in time too" so it must be much worse for the juniors.

[mharky]

If this is done correctly then I don't see how there is a problem.

Map at -3
Codes at -2
Nothing at -1

that would stop people working out where number 1 is and still give you 2 mins to get your codes in your holder. Maybe 10's & 12's can get theirs before so they can get some help. 14's and above should really be able to do this on their own.

I heard a lot of people complaining about being bombarded by info in the -1 box. This is bad. Maybe do this at -3, so they can see on the map the massive new piece of felling the forestry commission has done overnight.

why do we even have the maps as the start anyway? I presume it makes it fair on people who have never seen it before. I'm pretty confident I could go back in the family file and get basically every decent sized map in Britain, so I do have a slight advantage.

[Adventure Racer]

why do we even have the maps as the start anyway? I presume it makes it fair on people who have never seen it before. I'm pretty confident I could go back in the family file and get basically every decent sized map in Britain, so I do have a slight advantage.

Arguably, given this unfair advantage available to some, the organisers should really make maps available as part of the final details on the net. I presume the main obstacle is copyright, but that doesn't seem to stop people like GG publishing maps from areas he's run on, which is certainly one place I'll try when wanting to find out about an area I've not run on before. Was certainly very grateful when a club member made available a map of our CSC area to download, so I had a clue what I was letting myself in for. Meanwhile at that event, blank maps of the area were on display in the start area before the start lanes, which given pre-issued CDs enabled me to work out where #1 was (the control feature wasn't actually on my older map - not that it helped much!)

Surely such pre-event prep as checking out the map in advance is standard practice for the elite at major events. ISTR some mention on here of somebody working out where the long route choice leg would be in advance in the elite race at either JK or BOC a few years ago (the one where this was 2nd leg, and had the OOB controversy on the leg in question). It's even gone as far as people putting maps into CF so they can do virtual pre-runs (fairly sure this was done for JWOC in Australia).

BTW I wasn't equating short course to a fun run, it was just the easiest way I could find of expressing the point that running races only awards prizes for varying distances when they are held on separate occasions, so the best have the chance of competing in all events - my apologies for the implication, it was a lazy analogy. To counter Mharky's point - in Beijing, Bekele could have run in the 1500 if he'd wanted, just that unlike long runners running short in O (where the required physiology isn't hugely different), he'd not have stood a chance.

[Scott]

Arguably, given this unfair advantage available to some, the organisers should really make maps available as part of the final details on the net. I presume the main obstacle is copyright

...which is easily avoided by putting the old map on your (licensed) RouteGadget installation, as OUOC did for BUCS this year (and as I think was done for the 2008 JK).

[mharky]

Bekele's 1500m PB is 15:32.35, the Olympics was on in 15:32.94. Probably stood a fair chance... We'll leave the analogies for now.

But, I think you are making the assumption that the M45 short etc is the same thing as a middle distance. It isn't. It's the equivilant of a junior B course. It is shorter, not a short. It's an adjective rather than a noun, so to speak.

[Adventure Racer]

But, I think you are making the assumption that the M45 short etc is the same thing as a middle distance. It isn't. It's the equivilant of a junior B course. It is shorter, not a short. It's an adjective rather than a noun, so to speak.

If anybody is it's not me. Though my understanding is that you're also wrong, as a JB course should be easier, whilst an adult short course should be the same TD (and style) as a long, just with less controls and length. I'm obviously making my point really poorly, as I'd expect you of all people to agree with what I'm trying to say.

[mharky]

in which case i'm probably replying to someone else's post, or maybe even a few mixed together

[awk]

But, I think you are making the assumption that the M45 short etc is the same thing as a middle distance. It isn't. It's the equivilant of a junior B course. It is shorter, not a short. It's an adjective rather than a noun, so to speak.

It's not that either. Junior B courses are one TD lower than the A courses. S courses are meant to be the same technical standard as the L. Which is why they were relabelled as such some years ago - to help avoid confusion and remind that the 'B' class shouldn't be technically easier, just physically so. Instead, it creates another confusion as people equate the S with the L competitively.

It also aligns with the nomenclature in Scandinavia, where the last time I ran H45S in the O-ringen, it was won by a certain Kent Olsson, ex-World Champion. Now that's what I call having a competitive S class!

BTW, the L classes at the O-ringen are way shorter than at multidays over here: I tend to prefer S for multidays here, but L in Sweden. I have to say, I prefer the Swedish way.

[mharky]

I think 75% distance for multidays would be fair enough, yes/no?

[NeilC]

why do we even have the maps as the start anyway? I presume it makes it fair on people who have never seen it before. I'm pretty confident I could go back in the family file and get basically every decent sized map in Britain, so I do have a slight advantage.

The next version of the rules have removed the requirement to have blank maps in the start system, but in the interests of fairness still require previous versions to be made available online or at the event itself.

Having the blank map in the -2 box on Day3 of the JK cost me 30sec as I worked out where I thought the start was on the blank map. Then on picking up the race map immediately focussed on this region and started following the red line to the next control. Trouble was I'd got the start position wrong but had instead identified the location of control 1 as the start location. Fortunately a helpful fence soon put me right.

[frog]

I agree re having previous maps published/ available at the assembly or start, although to me studying them in detail does seem like cheating, although perhaps my lack of preparation by studying an old map beforehand is another example of self handicapping which Andy alluded to on another thread.
I think giving M/W14 and below their control descriptions early would be less stressful for them and also enable them to check unfamiliar symbols. My son had a problem finding a control on day 2 or 3 because he didn't know what he was looking for (although I'm sure that wasn't the only reason). Normally I go through the list with him. The gully symbol flumoxed him.

[mikey]

Reall enjoyable weekend.

Loved the design of the car park stickers

Thanks to all of the officials for their comments on the JK website - don't often get comments these days and they make fascinating reading.

[andy]

I like the 6 days when you can print them out at home and get set up beforehand.

I think Tay 09 will use the "new" system, if the rumours at the end of Spey 07 were correct . . . . But yes, I agree. I hate the stress of "am I going to get it finished in time too" so it must be much worse for the juniors.

Think they're going to be in the start lanes according to an email I've just dug up from last year from event main organiser! (pretty sure they haven't gone back on this decision)

I love having descriptions in the start lanes, means you don't have to worry about them prior to getting to the start and stops lots of comparing codes before running...

[andy]

I think 75% distance for multidays would be fair enough, yes/no?

http://www.scottish6days.com/2009/about/course-details

M21L, average length of 8km
recent SOL length for M21L was 9.6 (in a grotty slow area), so they are shorter (but not quite 75%)