Short course racing

[Stodgetta]

Mapping Mum - I wasn't being judgmental about the Ad Hoc - I ran it on Monday (on the long leg). It's a great course combination for a mixed bag of orienteers, but not necessarily for a group of club M45/50's.
Mharky, for the majority of orienteers it has nothing to do with being lazy, and more to do with having fun & enjoying the day after a fun weekend. Pushing hard and being towards the front on the first leg of the short open was far more enjoyable for Stodge than running hard for longer and finishing mid-pack without the pressure of being up front and having to get the navigation spot on. He was on an endorphin high for hours after he finished after the buzz of the run , something I wouldn't have had to put up with had he been on the open.
I think it would be more to have every team run the same course and have the class winners from them - first open team, first 120+, first 165+ etc. That would be a fantastic mass start with more opportunity for racing other teams reight down the field. But then either the elite orienteers would be complaining they hadn't been out for long enough, or the older orienteers would be complaining they were out too long...
edit - I hadn't read Mharkys idea before writing this one, but sounds fab to me!

[mharky]

Are saying that fun is in direct proportion to how far up the field you finish?

I can see why elites would complain. Craney ran for 22 mins at the JK, a bit of a joke, as I've said, middle leg at SM took 80. However, although vets would be out up to 50mins, I think the pure spectacle of being in a dynamic and exciting relay would far outwiegh the burden of having to run what you would normally run in an orienteering course.

Why are British relays so short? The Swedish Champs in 2008 had an average leg time of 70mins for the winners...

Oh, people are lazy.

[madmike]

Are saying that fun is in direct proportion to how far up the field you finish?

for many people yes for other people no

[Stodgetta]

I'm wasn't saying it's in direct proportion to how far up the field you finish - it was more about the racing experience Stodge got for him personally that he wouldn't have had had he been further down, for others 3km may be more fun than 5km, for others it may be about how far up the field they finish...all sorts of reasons.

[awk]

it was more about the racing experience Stodge got for him personally that he wouldn't have had had he been further down

Don't quite see that somehow - he'd still be racing against the same group of people whether they were at the front, middle or back.
Most enjoyable relay (and racing!) experience I've ever had was at the Spring Cup, when I definitely wasn't anywhere near the front - but it was an awesome race to be in. I think Mharky's idea for the JK would be brilliant.

[Adventure Racer]

Why are British relays so short? The Swedish Champs in 2008 had an average leg time of 70mins for the winners...

Why are Swedish relays so long? WOC 2008 had an average leg time for the winners of 46 minutes - though I suppose the Swedish runners did spend rather longer in the forest than that

[andy]

I personally think that would be absolutely amazing, so much more fun than having 5 relays and no real idea of what is going on. Winning by default isn't winning. When I'm 60 I'd much rather be running in a relay like that.

Mharky's long post that ended in the above is exactly what we need. Relay running is all about head-to-head racing (and making sure stodge doesn't beat you on the run-in). I'd love to see it too....and it would be less of a headache for computer teams as well as planners, who might even have time to add in some interesting gaffles if they only had 2 relays to plan

The Scottish Relays goes a (small) step towards this having a mass-start handicap race where every team runs a different set of legs depending on their 'handicap rating'

[seabird]

Add a mini-relay to the Scottish system and I think you are getting to the most desirable set-up.

The junior courses would require a separate start time to avoid being trampled in the rush.

The Mixed ad hoc is quite problematic. Ideally it should go, but amongst its adherents are some seriously slow adult orienteers who don't want TD4/5 courses. Should we be blunt and just not cater for them?

[distracted]

The relay idea sounds great for the JK, which after all is meant to be a 'Festival of Orienteering' - add in a junior class as well for the young'uns and you're away. Scrapping the age-class based restrictions means clubs can put their best teams together, and probably more teams too - better than having 70 (seventy?) teams on the mixed ad-hoc...

I doubt there'd be a club that couldn't enter at least one team in each of the men's and women's relay, even with the current 4 men/3 women set-up - you'd have a UK relay with a mass start of 200+ people I'd bet most people would prefer to be involved in a true relay race rather than those you currently get - too many classes means that often you're out there with no-one else around and it just feels like any other race... And hopefully those who don't usually run in relays would also join in, they know it's for fun rather than them being competitive so the pressure of doing well for their team-mates is much reduced.

For those who say it would be difficult logistically - as Mharky said elsewhere, copy the Scandis, they don't have a problem! Would get rid of the stupid map-issue system once and for all Fewer courses to plan means more attention can be paid to them and we'd get a quality race at the end of what is already a great weekend - head-to-head racing all the way down the field, a far better atmosphere and the spectators actually knowing what's going on! Try to avoid bussing to assembly at all costs, mind...

[andy]

Add a mini-relay to the Scottish system and I think you are getting to the most desirable set-up.

The junior courses would require a separate start time to avoid being trampled in the rush.

I think there is a mini relay.

[SeanC]

You lot seem to be agreeing on a relay format but I'm a bit confused about what it is. Could someone summarise?

My club is probably a typical small club. We had only 2 female runners. Most club members could run the 5K+ mens open course if the organisers wanted to cut down on courses, but a few couldn't/wouldn't for various reasons (lack of experience, too tired after previous days etc). We wouldn't want these people sat on the sidelines whilst everyone else enjoyed themselves, this would be bad for club spirit. Also we have a few good older runners who would want to be competitive against their peers - even if sharing their course with Mens open. Would this proposed format work for a bunch like us?

[mharky]

What I was suggesting was having this at the British Champs. Only 1 days racing prior to this. I also said courses should be 4-5km. Could even go something like 4/3/5. Lack of experience should never stop someone running something like that. There are only ever going to be 3 different gaffels, and with so many people round if you go to the wrong one it won't be too hard to find the right one.

Obviously there would be junior relays, and a novice/crip/OAP one too.

Who would want to be sat on the sidelines at those races, I think it would create an atmosphere we everyone would just want to get stuck in, no matter how crap and slow they are because there would be competitive racing all the way down the pack. You would be competitive against you peers, you just wouldn't be winning the whole thing. Any, as I suggested, this would be the British Relays champs, so your peers are British males.

I think it would suit the British more because only 1 days racing before means people can run (plus JK monday isn't a bank holiday in Scotland). Plus in my eyes the JK Trophy is still worth winning (although this year it was a bit short). The Brisith Relays are held at BOC, and as such not many of our "elite" runners are going to go, 6 of the 8 runners in the top 2 teams at the JK didn't go to BOC.

[madmike]

My summary would be:

A single 3-runner Mens relay (with sub classification in the results such as open, M120+,M165+ or whatever)
Ditto for Ladies
Juniors, mini-relay and Mixed Ad-hoc unchanged from current format

[seabird]

Add a mini-relay to the Scottish system quote]

I think there is a mini relay.

Not in the link we were given.

[mharky]

oh, and it would use map boards