Short course racing

[andy]

Why can't the short relay be scrapped as the JK trophy relay is already a short relay - it was won in 103 minutes - for 4 legs of a relay. The men's short had leg winning times of 19, 18 & 18 minutes. I don't believe for one moment that all those running the short relay couldn't run for another 10-15 minutes and compete in the top class.

we only had 3 people

so....bring on the jk relay next year!

[mappingmum]

...the only other alternative for the ages of competitors would have been the Ad Hoc with a 4.2km course and an orange.

What's wrong with the adhoc relay? 2x4.2 km + orange sounds ideal and in my very small club us slow ones would all be fighting over who gets to run fun orange! Don't be so judgemental - horses for courses!

[Scott]

And if true, can anybody tell me where it has been discussed/publicised, please, as I can't recall seeing anything about it - it certainly hasn't come up at club committee level.

The reduction to three runners on the JK Trophy is definitely going ahead: see Elite Competitions Group 2008, Rules Group Jun 2008, Rules Group Nov 2008, Events Committee Nov 2008.

The abolition of Men's Short was proposed by ECG and opposed by Rules Group (see the above minutes); I only have hearsay that it's actually happening, but can't find any clarification one way or the other (Major Events Group don't publish minutes).

[madmike]

[quote="awk] Madmike - what do you mean by 4 'good' people? The whole point is that clubs should put in their best team, whether they are 'good' or not; the shorter legs are designed to encourage that. Some clubs do, and all the more credit to them.[/quote]

Point I was trying to make is: if you have 3 reasonable runners and your fourth best was me - you enter the 3-man Short and try and get a pot

Now my closed Club had 1 good runner , 2 average runners and 1 short fat middle aged bloke with dodgy ankles - we entered the short with our best team resulting in 1st on Leg 1, 10 th by Leg 2 and 16th at the finish and the fouth bloke got a fun run and was DQ'd .

Point is some clubs are really small and finding 4 good runners is challenging - going to 3 next year is, imho, a good idea

[madmike]

Why can't the short relay be scrapped as the JK trophy relay is already a short relay - it was won in 103 minutes - for 4 legs of a relay. The men's short had leg winning times of 19, 18 & 18 minutes. I don't believe for one moment that all those running the short relay couldn't run for another 10-15 minutes and compete in the top class.

we only had 3 people

so....bring on the jk relay next year!

That's my point AWK made more succinctly than I ever could

[Scott]

I would add that for some clubs, entering your four best runners on the JK Trophy would mean seriously weakening your vets teams, and thus compromising your chances of actually winning a trophy (a dilemma KERNO faced this year, which I why is ended up in a Men's Short team instead).

[madmike]

I would add that for some clubs, entering your four best runners on the JK Trophy would mean seriously weakening your vets teams, and thus compromising your chances of actually winning a trophy (a dilemma KERNO faced this year, which I why I ended up in a Men's Short team instead).

Suspect BAOC men took a similar view

[mharky]

I have only heard it on the grapevine, but the idea is that the Men's short be scrapped and the JK Trophy reduced to 3 legs in order to get maximum participation.

I just think their are a lot of lazy people out there who would rather do well on the short than man up and come mid table on the trophy. The problem isn't the format or length of the relay. The problem is that the vast majority of British orienteers are lazy and don't want to be down the bottom of the results board.

The JK relays was far too short. If they drop it down to 3 legs that would have meant a winning time this year of 79 minutes. To put this in perspective, at last years Swedish relay champs only one runner ran quicker than this on middle leg. Our entire relay is quicker than their middle leg. What a joke.

[madmike]

No one can argue with what you think Mharky but personally I think to characterise the vast majorit y of orienteers i.e. the non-elite as lazy is not right

[awk]

I would add that for some clubs, entering your four best runners on the JK Trophy would mean seriously weakening your vets teams, and thus compromising your chances of actually winning a trophy (a dilemma KERNO faced this year, which I why I ended up in a Men's Short team instead).

Suspect BAOC men took a similar view

Hopefully, that could be solved by the fact that it appears M120+ will run as part of the same race; that will hopefully boost the competition numbers a lot. Will they still be eligible for the Trophy race?

But 2 short and 1 'long' (i.e. less short) leg? And did Elite Competitions Group really mean it when they said this was to fall in line with other major relays? Which other major club relays does this fall in line with please?

[mharky]

I would add that for some clubs, entering your four best runners on the JK Trophy would mean seriously weakening your vets teams, and thus compromising your chances of actually winning a trophy

There are only 2 real trophies to be won; the JK Trophy and the Women's Trophy.

A few years ago I had a day dream. The British Champs would have 2 senior relays. Men's & Women's. The men's relay would have 3 legs of 4-5km, a distance that everyone up to 65 would run in a normal individual race (after all, this is what relays used to be like, 3 individual races run back-to-back). There would obviously be super teams for clubs like SYO and EUOC, but there would also be teams of 3 M55's from TVOC and SLOW. Clubs would be putting in 3 or 4 or 5 teams, clubmates running together in the British Championships, not to win some tinpot, but to take part in the big one. There would be tight racing all the way through the field. People would be putting in family teams, or works teams or post-code teams for their clubs. That is what I love about the Jukola. There is one race for the men. One race for the women. Some people are there trying to win, but most people are there just to take part in the Jukola and have a good time with their mates doing the sport they enjoy. I think that would be an absolute spectacle. A start grid of 200 teams, everyone in the same race. Think what it would be like in the forest, everyone you see is racing against you. It would be amazing!

I saw a very sad sight at the JK, Nev Baker was coming in to win the M165+ and put his hand in the air to celebrate. There was literally no sound from the crowd. No one other than TVOC and the few clubs up with them cared. I also saw several sprint finishes between people who weren't even on the same relay. Now imagine a last leg where everyone you run past in the forest is a place gained. Everyone would be glued to the run-in on 3rd leg to see where there team came in.

I personally think that would be absolutely amazing, so much more fun than having 5 relays and no real idea of what is going on. Winning by default isn't winning. When I'm 60 I'd much rather be running in a relay like that.

[bedders]

Yes. That is possibly the best idea ever.

[madmike]

Now with that last post Mharkey I don't disagree

[Scott]

I actually agree with mharky , except I think that that format would work even better at the JK than at the British - people are still going to want their age-class British Relay Championships (although that could also be done with all the teams running in the same race at the same time - just give a trophy to the first M165+ team across the finish line). Some more intense competition for those of us the bottom end of the field would definitely be good for the sport.

speaking as someone in the bottom three on M21E at both individual days

[mharky]

Look at SUFFOC. Their first leg on the JK Trophy finished 131mins down on M21S. Their second leg finished 70mins down on W40L. I have serious respect for SUFFOC, they are running the JK Trophy because it is the premier event.

Look at ShUOC and SO on the Men's short, or FVO and SYO on the mens 120+. They could have run the Trophy, but they didn't.

The vets 4x400m is not 4x300m. *Orienteering can not be compared to athletics, but you get my point