Age Group Sprints

[NeilC]

Why not 18, 20, 21 & 35 all run same course. Winner takes Elite Champion title and top 18, 20 and 35 takes Age Champion? Seems very straightforward to me

Because it is very unlikely that the top 35s (for example) will be competing on equal terms with the other 35s. One 35 could find themselves in a weaker heat than the others and be the only one to qualify for the A final. They would then just have to finish to be crowned champion. In contrast the overall winner of the elite sprint is less likely to be affected by the heat draw.

[seabird]

The BOF Fixtures matrix that Greywolf displayed is a problem for all Sprint races - not just the British Champs.

BOF have been through all events registered and created this matrix for each event.
The matrix does not handle the sprint race concept at all.

We have a spring series of single course Sprint races (est winning time for a top of elite of approx 15 mins.) For the juniors and any other not interested in sprint we also lay on an Orange and Yellow course.

The BOF matrix for the event only displays the yellow and orange courses - no mention of the sprint course. Given the matrix's visual prominence this is bound to be confusing for competitors.

Still waiting advice from our Regional Fixtures Sec as to how we can undo this confusion, i.e. delete the matrix from these events.

[Patrick]

I'm sure I've asked this before (with no success), but can someone explain why a Sprint Champs has to include two races? Is it purely because the powers that be don't think people would bother turning up for a single 12-15 minute race? Surely if most of the problems discussed above are down to the two race format then using just one race is the solution - or am I missing something?

Cheers,

Patrick

[SeanC]

It's not just the sprints that The Matrix struggles with. A score event has nothing ticked, therefore giving the impression to a newcomer that a full range of colour coded courses are available. String and tag courses aren't displayed (which matters to me )...

However Scott keeps popping up announcing new features so I'm optimistic this will be fixed.

[Gnitworp]

It would be a sad day if the truly open format of the British 'Elite' Sprint Championships were abandoned, because it works. Better to call it the British Open Sprint Championships rather than 'Elite', because that is what it is, with no one excluded, and long may it continue.

[Kitch]

Just a thought. To what extent is the concept of 'sprint' affected, if at all, if one combines the two times together, as opposed to simply taking the time in the final?

combining times from two rounds is stupid.
It makes it a middle race with a rest.

[andy]

Hardly so - last year was the British Elite Sprints as indeed will be again at Nottingham.
Stirling was the inaugural proper British Champs for the vast majority (except the 21's)

Ah ha, makes sense. I had thought the Warwick event last year was a combined thing... I'm sure there was an 18/20E too? Can't remember what prizes/medals were handed out...

[epocian]

Kitch wrote

combining times from two rounds is stupid.
It makes it a middle race with a rest.

Hear, hear!

[Gnitworp]

So using the same logic the JK Individual is presumably a Long O with a slightly longer rest?

[graeme]

why two races?

Why not? There's time in the day, it makes for more atmosphere (weather permitting), and with around 40 legs to run, it's a better test than just 20.

the problems discussed above

Many of us don't see them as problems (nobody picked up any of the issues I raised). If Saturday had been designated the "Elite" championship then the age group competition would not have been any stronger. Two races works well with the gazillion tiny age-group classes, heats and final are better for the more inclusive "elite" championship with its huge entry.

If the choice is "one great event or two?" it seems like a no-brainer.

I'd like to have both on the same w/e - age class on Saturday, open on Sunday... Not only a great weekend, but a perfect candidate to move out of the overcrowded spring season (last year's UK cup final shows why middle races don't cope by undergrowth).

a middle race with a rest

Physiologically there's not so much difference between 15 min and 2 x 15min with 2-3 hours rest. Technically, the sprints are nothing like a middle race.

Does your Bob Graham attempt actually constitute running a few miles in the Lake District now and again?

[andy]

definitely didn't feel like a split middle race.

It's an excellent format, having people who are only a few seconds away from you in the overall picture starting 1/2 minutes either side of leads to a really exciting race. The planning meant you kept seeing them ahead (and the guy behind you on the dogleg) and it's an excellent incentive to keep moving fast!

[Patrick]

why two races?

Why not? There's time in the day, it makes for more atmosphere (weather permitting), and with around 40 legs to run, it's a better test than just 20.

By which logic we should have two races for the British Middle - or Long.

Why not? Well, there's the logistics involved in planning both rounds, manning the controls, the traffic issues associated with the second round being in the afternoon (they can't all be held on a Uni campus)...and I find "why not" a poor answer when asking why we make a special case for one particular format.

Frankly I'm not exercised either by all the arguments about how to determine age class winners, but it certainly seems to bother some people. One race seems to work fine for the JK Sprint - no one complains about a lack of atmosphere and everyone knows who the winner is, both for the elite and all age classes. It seems like a no-brainer to me to adopt a proven workable format rather than splitting the championships or inventing rules to cope with the two race format, but then maybe my brain has been affected by headbutting too many trees on Sunday.

Cheers,

Patrick

[Kitch]

So using the same logic the JK Individual is presumably a Long O with a slightly longer rest?

The JK is what the JK is.

Does your Bob Graham attempt actually constitute running a few miles in the Lake District now and again?

I have no idea what point you are trying to make

---------------------------------------------------

I have no issue with two rounds, but cumulative times vs qualifier / final are 2 different things.
If age classes want a sprint championship then why would it be different from the standard championship format ? i.e. the British Elite sprint champs format, the European sprint champs format the World Champs sprint format. These apply the same format for a reason - A single deciding final is a specific test of who handles the pressure in a single peak final race.
Running two cumulative rounds can benefit a softly softly approach - the winner could be fastest in neither. its a different proposition - not invalid - but not the standard championship format
Athletics World Chamionships, Olympic athletics......

Cumulative is a punter's format so that punters who make mistakes in one round have an opportunity to compensate in the other round.

You want sprint ? you want pressure ? do it properly.

Oh I know
we should have a British cumulative sprint champion and a British Final sprint champion.

[Blanka]

I'm sure I've asked this before (with no success), but can someone explain why a Sprint Champs has to include two races?

I guess the original reason was to be as close to WOC style sprint as possible. At WOC the sprint qualifiers and finals take place in one day so it makes sense for the national sprint championships to have the same format for the elites to get as much practice as possible.

You say the same should apply for middle and long. Usually the middle race qualifier at WOC is on a different day to the final (although 2008 had both on the same day) so there is no reason why it should be different in the national champs. For the long distance championships, in the Czech Republic they have a qualifier race followed by a final race the next day. But in Britain, there is no reason to do this because there are simply too few elites so we might as well have everyone run the same course and just have effectively one final.

[Gnitworp]

Refering to Kitch's last post:

I take your point, but calling it a 'middle race with a rest' was a pretty poor analogy, not up to your usual standard. Your elaboration clarifies your point of view.