British Champions

[LostAgain]

I see that we now have:

British Sprint Championships
British Middle Distance Championships
British Orienteering Championships

With people to be crowned British Champions at all these events.

With the above structure, is it right to name "British Champions" in both classes at the BOC, namely Short & Long (Elite).

Should we not only name "British Champions" at the Long Class and where relevant only Elite. We could call it the "Classic British Championships"? For those who want to be crowned "Short" Champio then there is the Middle Distance Champs or Sprints.

Discuss......

[NeilC]

Winners of S and B classes are not British/JK/Regional etc Champions.

[youngladdie]

Runners of 'S' and 'B' Classes have always been seen as, and treated by many as 'inferior'.
there are many reasons why people choose to run S or B, and often there are more competitors in these classes than the A/L class... I say treat us all equally.
At least some clubs/competitions are fair, and awards prizes for their efforts equally - even if its just a mug.
I guess this problem is addressed somewhat at the new 'regional' events where colour coded courses are used, with just suggested age class equivalent.

In answer the the main point, there is only One British champion (In each age class), at THE British Championships; then separate titles in the different disciplines. I can understand the Sprint' champion - tho prefer Urban races myself, but there is really no need for 'Middle' distance races at all.

[NeilC]

but there is really no need for 'Middle' distance races at all.

On the contrary it allows those that run "S" classes because "L" classes are too long to be able to be treated on equal terms with the best in their age class (as well as providing a distinctive type of orienteering experience etc).

[graeme]

If the BOC/BEOC races are on the same day we have.

British Champion (whoever wins 21E)

Then a bunch of other "long(&20E)" age group "Champions" who beat the all people not competing to become British Champion.

Then another bunch of "short" age group "Champions" who beat the people not running the elite or the "long".

You can call these secondary groups whatever you like - they won a race which wasn't the main race open to them on the day. Good for them. If there's nobody in their age-group running was 21E (or the long course, say 75S if nobody runs 75L) then I'd be convinced they were the best of their age on the day.

If BOC is separate from BEOC, like this year, then I would regard all A/L winners as equally worthy.

[LostAgain]

I was thinking that maye the "Short" should be dropped as a class at the BOC and replaced by a set of colour coded courses.

The "Classic" (Long/Elite) Champion for each age class would be named British Champ. Where there is an Elite class for the age category then the Long could be dropped in favour of colour coded also.

At the British Middle Distance Championships the "true" Short Course Champion could be determined and a valid British Champion named.

Just a thought..

[youngladdie]

[quote="LostAgain"]I was thinking that maye the "Short" should be dropped as a class at the BOC and replaced by a set of colour coded courses.

But then I dont think many of those that run at the British Championships in their 'Short' class would bother going - I wouldn't travel (often a long way) that far to do a colour coded course.
I like / prefer to run 'Short' but in my age class, and enjoy the British Championships / national events as they are 'Usually' (a shame about this year), or good areas, technical nd interesting/enjoyable, at a good standard/good map etc.., and not with the objective of being Champion, but the winners/top 3 in ALL classes should have their efforts awarded; instead of the winners in long classes getting prizes, trophies and momentoes and everyone else gettign nothing. It is great at just about ll Foreign International events for Everyone to receive a momento (the JK have done in the past) as they finish on the last day (even if you have paid for it through the entry), but i digress.

[distracted]

It comes down to the participation/competition distinction again...

Everyone can take part in the British Champs, at whatever level they feel suits. I have no problem at all with this.

However...

At the top it is about competition, finding champions. Ultimately it is a championship event. Just as there are World Champions at Sprint, Middle and Long, there are British Champions in each of these disciplines and, from this year, in each age class.


"Short" courses are fine for encouraging participation, but shouldn't and don't come into it when trying to find the best orienteers - you run the relevant course against the best to become champion. The distinction between the championships is not just in length but also in orienteering style and challenge; the suggestion of a British 'short' champion seems meaningless.


As for foreign/international events that Brits go to - how many of these are National Championships? Very few I'd imagine... If you're going to make comparisons, compare like with like. The equivalent UK event would be something like the Scottish 6 Days, what happens there?

[Gnitworp]

If BOC is separate from BEOC, like this year, then I would regard all A/L winners as equally worthy.

Even M/W 18/20/21s?

[Adventure Racer]

We've done this one so many times before...

Runners of 'S' and 'B' Classes have always been seen as, and treated by many as 'inferior'.
there are many reasons why people choose to run S or B, and often there are more competitors in these classes than the A/L class...

Those who are capable of being at the sharp end of L don't though, as they'd doubtless win S if they did.

I say treat us all equally.

They do - if you want to win a prize, you're perfectly free to run L, as that's the championship course. The national championship for shorter distances is held at a separate event.

At least some clubs/competitions are fair, and awards prizes for their efforts equally - even if its just a mug.

Some of the competitions I do also award prizes for most improved, or best first timer - should we also have those at the British Champs?

I can understand the Sprint' champion - tho prefer Urban races myself, but there is really no need for 'Middle' distance races at all.

That's something you should take up with the IOF. Though if you don't understand how it's a different discipline which does merit it's own prize (and very distinctly different from an S course), maybe you've never run a proper one.

[Mrs H]

Ah! If only all short courses were middle distance races - it would be a perfect orienteering world as far as I'm concerned. (Or if only there were more middle distance races full stop!)

I thought the MADO green on Saturday had a very middle distance feel about it - it was certainly the course I have most enjoyed so far this year.

As you say AR we've done this all before - the only answer is to offer more middle and sprint distance events where everyone competes together - and in that regard I think we are making some progress.

[geomorph]

Nomenclature.

We continue terms from the past. We continue our bias in thinking; BOC is 'the pinnacle' because it:
represents the ultimate in physical and navigational challenge

BOC is about 'classic' (often mistakenly termed 'long') races, but this is an implied term in the title of the event.
BMOC and BSOC clearly identify the format in the race title
This then suggests that middle and sprint are 'inferior' - which is not the case.
So BOC becomes BCOC, and all three are a series under the collective banner BOC.

We allow two champions per format: M/F in the respective 'Opens'. Title = British Orienteering Women's Classic Champion 2009 etc
Everybody else is who wins is an age-class champion. Title = British Orienteering Middle M50 Age-Class Champion 2008 etc.

The dilemma is that 'middle' is technically different from 'short classic' so there are some genuine 's' runners who would lose out if there were no 's' courses. If there is a true demand for a 'short classic' then it should be a separate event into which all can enter and not be constrained by it running at the same time as the long/classic. Right now the same group of people would win these as win the classic distance, though over time this may change if people specialise.

Where we can we need to offer high quality courses of equivalent technical challenge for those who chose not to run the appropriate championship distance, but these are not championship courses. As such I only see these at the 'long/classic'.

Lostagain suggests using colour coded. It would probably work once people got over the initial shock. it clearly identifies that these are not championships.

[andy]

getting a strange sense of deja vu...

[andy]

getting a strange sense of deja vu...

[Gnitworp]

..... 'middle' is technically different from 'short classic'

The mind boggles.