BUCS 2009

[Mrs H]

We're an undergraduate club. In the last 5 years I can only name 2 postgrads. .

Surely the four year courses at Edinburgh must a big factor in this as it increases each undergraduates' usefulness by 25 per cent (or is it 33 per cent - I don't do sums ). in fact thinking about it - I'm surprised there are not other Scottish universities at the top given that advantage.

[Scott]

in fact thinking about it - I'm surprised there are not other Scottish universities at the top given that advantage.

Perhaps not so surprising, given that there are so few universities capable of fielding full teams (three A-course men and three A-course women) in the first place - five in total this year. Cambridge managed to come fourth despite bringing only two women, whilst the top-placed one-man (Mr Franklin for UWE) team came tenth...

Personally, I'd much rather see more universities sending big teams people of competent-punter standard - the team competition seems a bit daft when there are so few universities in any position to take it seriously at all, never mind challenging the leaders.

[distracted]

In fact thinking about it - I'm surprised there are not other Scottish universities at the top given that advantage.

Probably because all of those orienteers going to a Scottish Uni, including most of the Scots, end up at Edinburgh. Which narrows the base for potential orienteers significantly, and can't be good for the sport...

It only takes one or two orienteers at a university to set up and drive a club - look what GG did at Warwick and Tess did at Birmingham, and the re-emergence of Bristol and Newcastle in the past couple of years. There are B and C courses, and the Novice course that we put on this year, for a reason...

I applaud what Sheffield are now trying to do, but this should be one of the foremost issues for any university orienteering club, not a passing thought. If you manage to produce a world-class athlete by doing so, then that's an added bonus...

[Scott]

It only takes one or two orienteers at a university to set up and drive a club

The problem being, of course, that these clubs can decline just as quickly once those one or two pre-existing orienteers leave after three years. I think this is where BOF could really make a difference: Steve Vernon (or someone similar) working with and supporting the nascent clubs, making it easier for those who want to set up a new club to get things off the ground, and then helping to provide a bit of continuity until the club gets itself properly established.

[graeme]

A little quiz.

Scotia ran 4:44 mins/km - sprints excepted when did anyone last go that fast in the UK?

[lilywhite]

Me at Wombwell on Sunday - 4:43mpks

[RJ]

It only takes one or two orienteers at a university to set up and drive a club

The problem being, of course, that these clubs can decline just as quickly once those one or two pre-existing orienteers leave after three years........

It is all about critical mass. Clubs in general.... well, quite a few of them, are starting to grow again. Membership is growing. This is the key to stability and longevity of the clubs, and in particular the Uni clubs. So long as there is an influx of 'club' juniors into the 'uni clubs' then the driving force can be maintained.

[SeanC]

Scott has a point though. Retention is as important as recruitment. Why waste all that hard work getting new juniors into the sport, then into uni clubs, if a uni club can't get going, or folds unnecessarily, for want of a bit of help from BOF or whoever?

A Steve Vernon type figure helping university clubs sounds like a good idea. There could also be funding for schemes to help get those leaving university into the club scene, but whether we can expect the BOF budget to pay for this without an increase in levies I am not so sure.

[Scott]

It is all about critical mass... So long as there is an influx of 'club' juniors into the 'uni clubs' then the driving force can be maintained.

Relying on an influx of club juniors to sustain a uni club is playing a very dangerous game indeed. It's clearly not a solution for "new" uni clubs: the two years you get out of your founding members simply isn't long enough to build up any significant appeal to club juniors taking their A-levels, and it seems to be that tricky transition stage at the three/four-year point where things often fall apart.

I've seen a couple of "new" uni clubs melt away during the short time I've been in the sport, and I can think of one or two more that at the moment appear to be in a worrying decline. And now even ShUOC seem to be discovering that they need to recruit from outside the junior squads... As SeanC suggests, strong uni clubs are essential to retain existing M/W20s in the sport, but I don't believe that (with perhaps one or two exceptions) they can rely on club juniors alone to provide the critical mass they need to survive.

[Mrs H]

I think the whole university thing is a huge area which needs thought and development. Particularly if there is to be any real returns from BOF's huge investment of time, energy and money into Schools orienteering. It just doesn't make sense to drop the support once the kids leave school - just because the government funding dries up then and BOF don't think they'll earn any brownie points by doing it (ie it's not a priority irrespective of the benefits to the sport in the long term). From my stand point now i can see how easy it could be for quite keen and useful orienteers to fall out of the system - and even some Start Squaddies I used to come into contact with who have gone to Uni's like Edinburgh can disappear without trace when they get there. We should be hoovering up newcomers at uni - not losing established orienteers

As G says - there's more to life than orienteering. But also there's more to orienteering than elite orienteering - my point being that the university which wins BUSA may not be the Best University Club.

By the way Scott - any progress on the relay splits etc?

[Lard]

Edinburgh has it all in Scotland - numbers, top degree courses, sports bursary, coaches and support, postgraduate support/input. You can see why it continues to do consistently well.

Alternatives in Scotland? Glasgow/Strathclyde - has a number of orienteers there and very regular events - Clyde/Stag and active postgraduates.

Stirling Uni - ISSOM mapped campus and fell on the doorstep. SportsScotland centre of Excellence, £1000 bursary programme to anyone in a National Squad, regular training sessions, coaches, postgraduates in the area - at the heart of Forth Valley Orienteering club - in fact Tuesday and Wednesday evening sessions take place at the Uni.

There are alternatives, like elsewhere, but Edinburgh, like Sheffield is the place to be, currently, if you wanna live the dream.

Sod the degree - we all end up earning about the same anyway! Go for the banter and the training and proximity to great terrain.

[Doug T]

But also there's more to orienteering than elite orienteering - my point being that the university which wins BUSA may not be the Best University Club

dinburgh might like to rethink it's elitism

It's been a while since i've posted on this forum but the comments have pissed me off.

EUOC is not an elitist club. Yes we continue winning BUSA and have many successful and elite minded athletes in the club, but the majority of activities and aims of the club are not 'elitist'.
yes as a University club we have a role to attract newcomers to the sport but we also have a role to keep young orienteers involved in the sport, and as a club we are very successful in doing so. We put on training each week, weekly socials and frequent weekends away throughout both semesters and not one of these activities is elite minded. The club doesn't need to cater for elites, because they generally have their own agendas aswell as us having a seperate bursary programme which caters for the elites.

Yes we do struggle to get newcomers but we have tried just about everything over the past few years, i is just difficult to get people interested in sport in general never mind a small one! At Edinburgh we have the dissadvantage of competing with so many active cluns and sports.

As for losing juniors as they come to edinburgh, thats their choice, they are not lost through the club being too elitist.

Just because we win BUSA that automatically makes us elitist: bullshit.
What do two housewives from the west midlands know about edinburgh uni orienteering club?

[Jess]

Just to add my thoughts...

BUCS championships are all about winning, as far as the Sports Union are concerned (and for the club, apart from some major relays) it's the most important fixture in the year. We want to win, and we do our utmost to do that.

Yes, our club has a lot of elites, and elites training with elites brings even better results. We have a great set up in Edinburgh with support especially from the University and CSE (Edinburgh gym) and the local clubs.

However, it is not just an elite club. You will see that we had people on all 3 mens courses (note the complete newcomer 2nd place on course C) and both womens. We had 25 people taking part, of which about half have probably been in start squads. The club does a great job of keeping people orienteering, many of which are probably doing a lot more orienteering now at uni than they did at home. (We even have a swede who doesn't do a lot back home, but loves the atmosphere here).

We do try to get new people into orienteering, we go on a recruitment mission every year, especially around fresher's week, but it's difficult. We don't get very many and it's a problem that needs sorting. We're stuck on what to do next, running out of ideas. A lot of time and effort goes into making things available for newcomers, but in the end we just don't seem to get many. We don't want to put so much of our time into recruiting rather than gearing stuff towards the people we've already got and making sure it's a club they want to be in (otherwise the club would disappear!). Catering for beginners right through to elites at the same time can be difficult.

Another club that I believe does a tremendous job is Newcastle. I think I'm right in saying that their Captain (Kris Smith) didn't orienteer before coming to uni and is now recruiting people. They had 7 people (none of them previously orienteers) come to our Burns Weekend in January and they were all there at BUCS at the weekend. I spoke to hmi abotu what they do to recruit members and it seems they don't really do anything different to us, so it's difficult.

But, we won BUCS, we were the biggest team at BUCS, our team training and ambitions over the winter have been fulfilled and now individuals and relay teams can go on to do big things on the domestic and international scene.

Well done to Sheffield/Oxford/Newcastle/Durham etc. for getting new people into the sport, but at the end of the day, we brought most of the trophies home.

[Jess]

doug got there first, perhaps wrote it better than i did, but our point being that a LOT of people (yes, even students can put hard work in) give a lot of their time up to make our club what it is, so your misjudged comments are not appreciated.

[Becks]

A final point to add, on the idea that there is more to life than orienteering, is the vast distance between Edinburgh and Oxford. There was an immense amount of travelling involved, and so it's not surprising that people new to the sport or less super keen would think twice about dedicating their entire weekend to 15+ hours in a minibus.

The comments about Edinburgh being elitist are nonsense, and it's a huge insult to people like Jess and James, who have run an excellent club, started a fantastic street race from scratch, and done everything in their power to attract new people along. I recently stopped running with the club as I no longer fit in, too old (I've got nearly ten years on those youngest freshers now!), too fed up - it is a vibrant and sociable club for young orienteers from everywhere, but suffers from a huge amount of competition. The Hill Walking club here is very strong, and with real hills nearby has a lot more to offer than their counterparts in Oxford for sure, where journey times are very long to hit the real stuff. The same goes for Mountain Biking - orienteering isn't the only (and best) way to get out into some pretty incredible outdoors in Edinburgh.

Having spent considerable time at both clubs, Edinburgh and Oxford, which seem to be being painted as the antithesis of each other, they are very different but they both work extremely hard on their development, and have a lot to offer orienteers at any level. Please stop castigating Edinburgh when you know very little about the way they function.