Are there too many changes happening at once?

[Gross]

As Scott mentions, what do you get from being a member apart from the £2 discount?

In our case, nothing.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG... your club gains a lot as do it's members. How many have progressed through to BOF Squads and teams? How many have qualified as coaches & controllers? Who writes the rules and guidelines??

BOF give a lot to all orienteers - members or not?

[distracted]

Why does a surcharge encourage people to join a club? It doesn't, it encourages them to join British Orienteering. There's a significant difference...

Also, why does British Orienteering differ from the majority of national federations in having Individuals join - in which other sports does this happen? What's the problem with people automatically becoming members of the national federation when they join a club? Then every club member is a BOF member automatically...

So, forget about BOF for a moment. People come along and experience orienteering. What should we be doing to encourage these people to join an orienteering club? What do the majority of clubs actually offer their members? If the answer is "not much" then what should we be doing to change this?

[Paul Frost]

I agree that it would be good for people to become members of our club.
But as mentioned, they actually need to join British Orienteering and the Scottish Orienteering Association and the club. This is not so easy to explain, along with the 2 levels of membership and how much it costs.

We do not charge a membership fee as we do not provide much. Lots of the people that attend our events only go to those that are near them, maybe 3-4 a year. So our model of PAYG is fairer to them.
Clubs that have weekly/regular coaching/training sessions are better placed to charge.

I did have a recruitment drive recently and pointed out reasons why they should join:

There is no membership fee to join the club, but if you plan to orienteer regularly you should join the British Orienteering Federation and the Scottish Orienteering Association. These bodies are responsible for the management and development of the sport and need the financial support of participants. Most funding (government & public) is based on the sports membership numbers and participation, so it’s important that you are officially recorded as an orienteer.

Only 2 people signed up.

[Gross]

Not a very successful recruitment drive... maybe you should try a different approach... your quoted statement doesn't seem very positive about BOF or SOA.... you could mention the real benifits, Proffesional Officer, transfer of Map copyright, coach training, controller training, BOF and SOA website... much more positive than simply stating the SOA and BOF need participants money.

[Big Jon]

Gross- I had to read your post twice to make sure it wasn't tongue in cheek! What has the world come to when you are defending BOF?

Or are you planning to apply for the head coach role?

[Paul Frost]

...you could mention the real benifits, Proffesional Officer, transfer of Map copyright...

I'm not sure that the transfer of map copyright is seen as a big advantage to being a member of an orienteering club, and BO don't think it's worth mentioning all those things in their benefits of joining.
Enough anyway, we have gone off topic.

[egocentric pothunter]

It seems that by starting this thread that there has been a lot of discussion about many of the issues...this I feel is good for the sport...I think to sum up some of the issues raised so far are:

Changing the event structure has confused some, but not all, and the change is not just to attract newcomers but to simplify the over- all courses offered up to Old Money badge events. One point I would like to draw peoples attention to: Why give them colour coded names instead of numbers? If courses were numbered 1 through to 10, beginners could be told that Course 1 was the most easy navigationally and physically, and the higher the number the harder the navigation and physicallity? As they start they work their way up the courses at their own pace until they find their forte. The only problem I could see is with the old Red standard being longer than Light Green, but you could say that was course 4EN (Easy Navigation) and so on. It's only a minor point. Newcomers also need to be briefed in the meaning of TD1 to TD5 and point in between. So a course 6 (Blue) at Bethecar is going to be much harder navigationally than course 6 (Blue) at Clumber for example.

The new fixtures list: it seems many do not like it, possibly because it is new... I personally find it cumbersome, others feel no need for dogs/cats icons, others like me just want simple info, simply. Some have said they will use http://www.oobrien.com/map/index.php -and there is another thread about it...others think the new list is great, just the boost we need to get new people involved.

More people : we all seem to agree that we need more new blood, at whatever age...some think that newcomers are put off by event fees and the £2 "penalty" they have to pay, others do believe it encourages newcomers to join BOF. I'm quite sceptical about it. I know some casual orienteers who have run badge events at £10 quid as non members, and, as they don't run that often in the year can't see the point of joining bof. Some have suggested that as a member of a running club they get a lot for their membership fees. Speaking personally as a member of a 3 other outdoor pursuit clubs, one club charges non members to take part; of which £3.75 of the daily membership fee is for insurance. The other 2 clubs have try it days for free. I believe that AAA events require you to be an affiliated member to pay a discounted rate to enter road races, or "unattached " runners pay an extra pound or so, I'm not sure. It seems there is no right model out there!
When I joined my first orienteering club it was stated we could take part as non member for the first 3 races, and then you should join the club. That was, in those days the only way to find out about fixtures if you didn't have a friend willing to tell you the fixtures. With the internet any one can find fixtures. Perhaps we only have the next 3 weeks available to the public, and BOF members have to log in using their membership number and first line of address to see the whole year. Yes non members could go on once a week, but there would be good marketing on the site so they would begin to see the benefits of joining BOF.
THe bottom line however, is we all agree we need new members, especially younger ones to grow into the sport.

More Places: No one appears to have mentioned this. If we want more places we need to get more public, like the Street events in Skipton and Scarborough...we need to be in the public's face- showing off the sport.

More Podiums: again no one has commented. But does "Focus" focus too much on the elite and not enough on the journeyman/woman and/or novice?

Event fees: This seems to be a whole can of worms, intrinsically linked to the event structure. There, so far appears to be no consensus. Some think they are too high, but compared to a ticket for a football match are quite reasonable. For me I can't fathom out why an Old Money Badge event is often twice as much as an Old Money Colour Coded, when both seem to have similar outlays per person.

Ranking Points[i] No one has mentioned this. I have an idea- it may sound very complicated.Below is from the BOF website, but it was quite hard to find.

[i]Martyn Broadest, of Airienteers, has been appointed to Chair the Workgroup, and he is now seeking expressions of interest from other orienteers who would be keen to contribute to this piece of work

I will email my idea to him, and perhaps volunteer to join the working party.
If people want me to post my idea here, I will

Please continue to discuss issues raised- we need healthy debate

[awk]

IOne point I would like to draw peoples attention to: Why give them colour coded names instead of numbers? If courses were numbered 1 through to 10, beginners could be told that Course 1 was the most easy navigationally and physically, and the higher the number the harder the navigation and physicallity? As they start they work their way up the courses at their own pace until they find their forte. The only problem I could see is with the old Red standard being longer than Light Green, but you could say that was course 4EN (Easy Navigation) and so on. It's only a minor point. Newcomers also need to be briefed in the meaning of TD1 to TD5 and point in between. So a course 6 (Blue) at Bethecar is going to be much harder navigationally than course 6 (Blue) at Clumber for example.e

This would only work if you were prepared to have events missing out course numbers (e.g. an event would host courses 1-4, 6, 8, 9, 10, 12 etc): the structure is designed so that events can run what courses they need, not always putting on the same standard. And the course numbering idea assumes that events will always host similar distances - what about sprint, middle etc? The idea behind a colour is to give a ready indication of the absolute difficulty of the course, in both physical and technical terms.

Newcomers don't need briefing about what happens with Blue etc. courses -they shouldn't be running them, and simply need to know they are at the technical end of the spectrum. By the time they are more experienced and starting to look at these courses, they should have picked up the principle that these courses are at the most technical the area can sustain, rather than an absolute measure.

It always seems to be those with some experience who worry about colours being difficult to understand. Pretty much every beginner I've ever worked with has been perfectly comfortable with a colour structure - after all, the idea is used in other sports too.

[madmike]

Newcomers don't need briefing about what happens with Blue etc. courses -they shouldn't be running them, and simply need to know they are at the technical end of the spectrum. By the time they are more experienced and starting to look at these courses, they should have picked up the principle that these courses are at the most technical the area can sustain, rather than an absolute measure.

Where were you when I was introduced to the sport by Mick L, blue on weds, brown on following sun and a M21L the following sun

[egocentric pothunter]

^^^^^
Fair point Awk...which other sports by the way?

The Aire flyer for Penistone Hill has a list of numbers next to a list of colours.

The numbers idea is not mine it's what they do in the Netherlands except 10 is easiest and 1 is hardest.

[DM]

^^^^^
Fair point Awk...which other sports by the way?

The Aire flyer for Penistone Hill has a list of numbers next to a list of colours.

The numbers idea is not mine it's what they do in the Netherlands except 10 is easiest and 1 is hardest.

Judo, Karate and the like. Most people appreciate what a black belt means.

Numbers can mean lowest number is "hardest" as we have been using or lowest number is easiest, ie music standards.

Simple explanations of "a darker colour is harder" are easy to explain and understand.

On rankings list, maybe no-one has commented because no proposals have emerged from the working group process yet - we are waiting for something to comment on. My understanding - from several sources put together so probably not correct- is that we will have a scheme that ranks everyone in a single list, points scored by all (including juniors) on any colour of course. With the ability to filter in this list to look at people of your age group if you choose to. I have seen comment about only TD5 courses being included. Best to wait and see what comes out as the working group has been running for several months now.

[Mrs H]

Epocian Pothunter - those items you say have not been mentioned here have been discussed ad nauseam else where - I think most of us were confining ourselves to the particular points you made in your original post. It certainly isn't because people here don't care about them.

[SeanC]

Going back to the point about clubs doing more to encourage people to join, do any clubs offer subsidised or free d?bber / emit bricks? I'm thinking this would also reduce the amount of hiring which is a bit of a chore.

[seabird]

So a course 6 (Blue) at Bethecar is going to be much harder navigationally than course 6 (Blue) at Clumber for example.

EP the Aire flyer you quote for Penistone & Haworth handles this problem.

Under the difficulty column Black is Very Hard (TD5?) physically and Hard navigationally. On the other traditionally TD5 & 4 courses the various descriptions used are Very Hard, Hard, Quite Hard and Moderate under the two headings As the area is largely new to orienteering it gives the experienced orienteer ( as well as the newcomer)some idea of what they are actually getting.

So Bethecar Blue would probably be Very Hard under both categories: and Clumber Blue probably may have been Hard or even Quite Hard. Most experienced orienteers will be well aware of this just from the geographical location of each, if not personal experience, but could be useful for the less experienced.

[DM]

Going back to the point about clubs doing more to encourage people to join, do any clubs offer subsidised or free d?bber / emit bricks? I'm thinking this would also reduce the amount of hiring which is a bit of a chore.

Sean,
For our intro events this year we are doing away with hire charges, for hassle reasons as you say. There was some resistance to this with clubmates saying a small charge makes people realise it's an expensive piece of kit and prevents loss. I don't accept that any charge will make the thing being lost any more/less likely.

One other thing we will be trialling is giving a small extract of map with a range of key features on it (path/building/open/wooded etc) and offering someone to walk round with beginners - before they head out on a course. The idea is to avoid beginners feeling they are in at the deep end, mispunching or getting way off course and thinking they can't do it and not coming back. (Idea was lifted from the World masters Portugal where map extracts around the start were given to familiarise people with the terrain).