Are there too many changes happening at once?

[madmike]

Ramald,
your second version, i.e. keeping it simple will probably work best imho. Point about TD4/5 is well made methinks

[DM]

Ranald,

What are you trying to do? Drive families with juniors away? Both your proposals have big downsides to any family with juniors who run TD4 and above, not an insignificant number. Or are you trying to keep them running on orange? Based on the costs you present our entry cost would go up from £27 (under current typical charges) for the family to potentially £45 in a couple of years when our youngest gets onto Light Green TD4.

The first proposal is based on length? TD5 range from the short ones of around 3.5km up to the length the M21s run so how does someone running 3.5 k pay the same as one paying 10 k?

[awk]

Ranald,

What are you trying to do? Drive families with juniors away? Both your proposals have big downsides to any family with juniors who run TD4 and above, not an insignificant number. Or are you trying to keep them running on orange? Based on the costs you present our entry cost would go up from £27 (under current typical charges) for the family to potentially £45 in a couple of years when our youngest gets onto Light Green TD4.

Either you misunderstand, or I do, but I think what Ranald is saying when he says

TD1-3 + students + juniors = £3

is all on TD1-3, plus students and juniors on any course, pay £3. Looks very sensible to me.

[Scott]

Hurrah! This is something I've been banging on about for ages... At the least, I would love to see the £2 non-BOF-member surcharge scrapped for courses of TD3 and below. Given that those on these courses who aren't juniors (and so exempt anyway) tend to be relatively new to the sport, it always seems unfair to penalise them for not having joined BOF.

We got around this at Oxford 2007 by the now-established trick of registering the White/Orange/Yellow/Red courses as a C5 that just happened to be taking place in the same place on the same day... But by BOF applying the non-member surcharge at all levels of event that loophole has sadly been closed.

DM - I assumed that by "TDs 1-3 + Juniors + students - £3.00" Ranald meant that Juniors and students would pay £3 whatever course they run. Where's the problem with that?
Edit: what awk said.

[DM]

Ranald,

What are you trying to do? Drive families with juniors away? Both your proposals have big downsides to any family with juniors who run TD4 and above, not an insignificant number. Or are you trying to keep them running on orange? Based on the costs you present our entry cost would go up from £27 (under current typical charges) for the family to potentially £45 in a couple of years when our youngest gets onto Light Green TD4.

Either you misunderstand, or I do, but I think what Ranald is saying when he says

TD1-3 + students + juniors = £3

is all on TD1-3, plus students and juniors on any course pay £3, which looks very sensible to me.

Awk and Ranald,

It's me who can't read- I re- read the original and realised my mistake. Second option seems better and simpler.

[distracted]

At the least, I would love to see the £2 non-BOF-member surcharge scrapped... [snip]

Some of us would just leave that sentence as snipped above... then there wouldn't be any issue at all.

[Scott]

"BOF have asked for opinions on the new event structure - there was a request for emails last year." I'm sad to say I didn't see the request.

Also, I believe a fair part of the "conference" that followed the EGM in October 2007 was given over to discussing the original proposals (although a lot has changed since then) - there's a summary of what was said on the BOF website.

At the least, I would love to see the £2 non-BOF-member surcharge scrapped... [snip]

Some of us would just leave that sentence as snipped above... then there wouldn't be any issue at all.

Aye, but it never hurts to be realistic - I imagine BOF are (not unreasonably) still scared of losing the nice boost to the membership figures provided by people who only joined to avoid the surcharge in the first place. After all, if you don't happen to be planning to enter the JK or BOC in any given year, I'm not convinced that £20 represents good value for four copies of Focus, appearing in a broken ranking list and a vote at the AGM.

[EddieH]

Surely Scott, the £2 surcharge for non BOF members is a statement. It is entirely up to the clubs to decide how and if they want to impliment it.

Surely every club will simply ignore the latest directive for their genuine local events with a minimal entry fee. Then once things like that get broken, other ways to do so will be taken -e.g. Ranald's eminently sensible approach to entry fees at Eyam.

[SeanC]

I think this is the first time I've heard someone put the case for the local discount ?

There are some merits. I think newcomers are more likely to become active orienteers (and be the sort that can grow the sport by organising, mapping etc) if they join a club. We can then keep them in the loop about forthcoming events, club socials, coaching etc. The BOF discount encourages them to join. I don't believe the fees are a big deterrant once they've done one or two events. Joining as a local BOF member is still cheaper than joining my wife's hockey club as a (non playing) social member. Some will join whatever, but some need a push, perhaps they have busy lives.

I would hope that the BOF discount could be applied flexibly. For example I think clubs should be allowed to let the first event be free - no surcharge.

Unfortunately the way the discount for all events was announced (in BOF minutes) may not have helped as it might be interpreted as a dictat. I doubt whether this was intended. Pricing issues are sensitive it seems, so the reasons and benefits to clubs need to be highlighted.

[RJ]

........I would hope that the BOF discount could be applied flexibly. For example I think clubs should be allowed to let the first event be free - no surcharge....

You have mentioned good reasons why clubs should charge the £2 for non-members. The best thing is for each club to discuss the matter in committee and see how the best interests of the club are served. Perhaps some clubs have different levels of 'local' event, and may choose to waive the surcharge if they have targeted schools, youth clubs, scouts etc. I'm sure all clubs will see the advantage of gaining new members, and may consider the surcharge as a worthwhile mechanism. I think that if an individual is likely to enjoy the sport to the extent that they are going to help/organise/plan in the future then they are likely to take little convincing to join.

[orient]

Surely Scott, the £2 surcharge for non BOF members is a statement. It is entirely up to the clubs to decide how and if they want to impliment it.

Surely every club will simply ignore the latest directive for their genuine local events with a minimal entry fee. Then once things like that get broken, other ways to do so will be taken -e.g. Ranald's eminently sensible approach to entry fees at Eyam.

Unfortunately, with the implementation if this in the new fixtures list. There is no way to turn off the message about BO members receiving a £2 discount that appears at the top when you click on the view fees. As a work around we are putting "Entry fees as stated ~ BOF member discounts N/A" in the group fees box when creating the event.

[Scott]

There are some merits. I think newcomers are more likely to become active orienteers (and be the sort that can grow the sport by organising, mapping etc) if they join a club. ... The BOF discount encourages them to join.

I agree that the people joining clubs is undoubtedly a good thing, but the problem is that, although lot of clubs are getting better, in many the BOF discount is still the *only* benefit of joining. I can join my local running club for less than Local membership of the average orienteering club - but membership of the running club gets me two free coached runs (in groups catering for a wide range of abilities) and one £2 coached track session every week throughout the year, which was far more incentive to join that the discounted entry I get at all AAA-registered events. I'd rather see orienteering clubs increasing their membership by offering more substantial membership benefits than by actively penalising those who don't join - but, sadly, just relying on the stick is much easier and requires far less volunteer time than offering more carrots.

I would hope that the BOF discount could be applied flexibly.

I would hope so too, but as orient points out BOF aren't exactly making that flexibility easy to achieve. And since "discounted entry to regional and local events" is listed as a membership benefit on the British Orienteering website, the downside of flexibility - and the discount being applied differently by different clubs - may only be to confuse newcomers as to what they're getting for their membership money.

Interestingly, the discount was introduced in the 2006 AGM membership & levies motion, but hasn't been renewed since, so presumably whatever the Board may decree there has been no obligation to enforce it since 1st Jan 2008...

[EddieH]

Wow, I see what you mean about the entry fees on the BOF site
It would appear that MAROC will have to pay me £2 to run at their event tonight

Orient you are a genius "BOF DISCOUNT NOT APPLICABLE"

[SeanC]

Scott - I agree clubs could do more to offer benefits. We've started offering monthly training before events and we've already had one member join (without going to an event) because of this.

However it's not fair to compare orienteering with running. That orienteering map for example is expensive in time and/or money. We don't have to market the BOF discount as a stick, simply that we are a sport that needs people to be involved by joining a club, but if people want to help by contributing money, they can stay independant and pay £2 instead.* Marketed as a benefit, and applied flexibly, this is quite reasonable.

If we get more people into our clubs, then there is a greater pool to offer coaching, social events and other club benefits. Even if people join clubs but don't get involved, they are surely more likely to go orienteering more often, and therefore more likely to be telling their friends and relatives about the sport - our best form of publicity.

It would be a pity if this turned into a BOF verses clubs thing as with a bit of discussion and a few modifications this would be of benefit to both.

*comment not applicable to juniors or newcomers

[Paul Frost]

As Scott mentions, what do you get from being a member apart from the £2 discount?

In our case, nothing.

We do not charge anything to belong to the club and we raise our funds from entry fees (£4/£2). Whilst we have tried to encourage participants to join we do not have that many events that they can attend to balance out the cost. They would need to enter 9 events a year to be in pocket. We held 16 events in total in 2008 over the whole of Argyll (2,500 square miles). We have about 4 pockets of people spread around the county. The events tend to be polarized around those pockets, and it can be a 2 hour drive between the pockets.

It's not really feasible to offer club training nights every week like BO would like to see due to the distance people would need to travel.

We do offer training/coaching, and charge a small fee for attendance if it's not part of a normal event, so it's like a PAYG phone rather than a contract one.

We have not made joining very easy either, on occasions that I have tried to explain the process and the 2 levels of membership to a potential member they just glaze over. They say they will read the notes or visit the website and nothing happens. It seems more complicated in Scotland because of the SOA component, so it looks like they have to join 3 separate organizations.