Are there too many changes happening at once?

[Angry Haggis]

I want to know, at a glance, what is on offer without having to drill down event by event to find out
1) the courses on offer
2) the cost of entry
3) the start time window
4) where the event is is in relation to the major roads and towns.

That for me is what a modern fixture list should provide.

For now , I intend to continue using Ollie's Google based facility. This shows me what is coming up in my selected area in the immediate future and gives me a good guide as to how long it might take for me to drive to an event. That's a good starting point. It would be nice Ollie, when you rework your code to be driven from the new BOF system. could you also provide a link to the event on the BOF event details screens. Then we get the best of both worlds. I don't need to see the dogs and smiley faces ~ just the orienteering details.

My fixtures map now uses the new BOF list. As always, it's at: http://www.oobrien.com/map/

It doesn't yet show the courses available, cost of entry or start time window, but it does include a link to both the BOF details page and the event's own website.

PM me if you spot any bugs - it looks almost identical but actually quite a lot has changed behind the scenes, so quirks may be present. The only bug I know at the moment is it doesn't list events for which there is no details link on the BOF site (i.e. events with provisional details.) This is probably not so bad a thing as provisional events don't have a location, so wouldn't have appeared on the map anyway.

[egocentric pothunter]

Well a lot has obviously past me by. I had no idea there were so many working parties.
I might have wanted to join one and shove in my 2 penny worth!

Regarding fixtures, I noticed, today at Bethecar, NWOA had a load of paper printed fixtures lists destined for MAROC and DEE with fixtures for the next few months. Written on a piece of paper!

[RJ]

........NWOA had a load of paper printed fixtures lists destined for MAROC (MEROC actually!.... edit) and DEE with fixtures for the next few months. Written on a piece of paper!

That is issue 142.... been going since January 1986. Folk do like to see the details written down.... as well as being able to check out the websites and get the latest details. The folk already committed to the sport find out the information on events from lots of sources.... the printed fixture list, club newsletters, club websites. They know what the routes are.

I think BOF are probably right to design the BO website to cater for the new and aspiring orienteer. Old hands are well used to the grapevine!!

[geomorph]

My fixtures map now uses the new BOF list. As always, it's at: http://www.oobrien.com/map/

It doesn't yet show the courses available, cost of entry or start time window, but it does include a link to both the BOF details page and the event's own website.

Fantastic.
Can you/would you do the 'add to basket' bit at all?

[Clive Coles]

Thank's Haggis

That's really great

[Mrs H]

I'm speechless at this thread - i think you are all missing the wood for the trees - what has actually changed? We all still turn up and run courses and then go home again. You're talking about lists and names and classifications as if they change what we do - they don't - but if they change how you feel about things maybe you need to examine how you feel and change that.

Ten years ago we were on the brink of e-punching and computerised results and everything that has come with it that we now take for granted - enormous changes to the sport and yet the world hasn't ended because of these changes - quite the opposite (or are orienteers responsible for the global recession and i've missed the connection).

I might not like the disjointed and arse about face way that things have been introduced and I might be highly critical of BOF central for the high handed manner with which they have disregarded the very worthy (and sometimes far more radical) recommendations of those members who could get of their backsides and try to do something - but i have no doubt that without sweeping changes to make the sport more accessible to newcomers and more attractive to existing young members and less susceptible to the challenges of the eco-zeolots then this sport will die out when the current middle aged bulge meet their maker. That's what you should be really worried about! Not the name of the event and the format of the fixture list

[distracted]

Well said Mrs H Unfortunately, there is a significant part of the orienteering population who can't see beyond what they want to experience, which is a real shame...

[EddieH]

I agree with Mrs H. In reality has anything much changed at all.

IMO BOF should have a real input into level 1 events, but other than basic rules, leave as much as possible to those out there at the coal face as to how things are to be done.

Ideas and help welcome - dictats unwelcome.

[mharky]

this is just like the UCI v ASO saga... almost

[egocentric pothunter]

As I started this thread, I wanted to see what people's opinions were. The problem with this forum is that it does not get a response from accross the membership.

Mrs H, a lot has changed, which in the long run will probably be for the better. I don't think anyone wants to see the sport die out.

BUT...I have only once been asked for an opinion. That was the participation survey on line. Which I stumbled accross looking for the fixture list (the old one!) But only one of the family could answer it as our IP address was blocked from doing it three times!

When new ideas that appear to change the very nature of the sport are put forward I think the membership should be given a greater opportunity to pass comment.

"I like this...but not sure how this willl work...have you thought about...?"

e.g. New regional events...all colour coded... fine, the long course is too long the short course is too short...but fees at Badge event rates? so the casual orienteer (the spouse and kids perhaps) are going to have to pay the same as the pro? Will they bother competing? So to avoid losing these perhaps we need to think of some "casual courses" Or what?

I think the point we are making is that we want to be asked an opinion and that what appear to be radical changes are piloted first! Like with ageless junior courses...that was very radical, but after piloting in YHOA first, it was then rolled out to the country.

Perhaps that is all that is needed?

I look forward to Mrs. H's article in next month's Compass Sport.

As Eddie H said "Ideas and help welcome - dictats unwelcome."

[SeanC]

BOF have asked for opinions on the new event structure - there was a request for emails last year. Also they are asking for opinions on the new fixtures list (after it went live, but it's still being updated). However you're central point of improving communication and testing changes is quite reasonable. Survey's aren't free though. Who is going to do them? One of the paid officers with too much work already, or a volunteer. That means us.

I think the question shouldn't be "Are there too many changes happening at once", but "how can we implement change at the national level without unnecessary grief" .

[Mrs H]

so the casual orienteer (the spouse and kids perhaps) are going to have to pay the same as the pro?

While I sympathise with this scenario - there is no logic which says that a casual orienteer should pay less than a "pro" at the same event when they are getting the benefits of all the same outlay (toilets, traders, SI, over printed maps). the old colour coded courses at badge events were a hang over from the master map days - you paid less because you were not getting the same product.no one wants to go back to marking up their own map do they? more likely to put off your casual orienteer than anything I would have thought!

There are however various ways round this if a club chooses to take them - they could make wayfarers courses based on the yellow and orange - making a saving on the printing process to pass on to the participant.

Or they could choose to charge less across the spectrum of white, yellow and orange as something of a loss leader on the grounds these courses are frequented in the majority by juniors, families and adult beginners. Could be quite a good marketing point in my opinion. I'm sure i could think of more if I put my mind to it - it's certainly not a deal-breaker in my book.

[egocentric pothunter]

^^^^

No I'm sure clubs have already thought of that. This was just a real example that I have overheard beeing talked about in car parks/assembley areas.

Clubs could choose to charge less across all courses at regional events.

"BOF have asked for opinions on the new event structure - there was a request for emails last year." I'm sad to say I didn't see the request.

In terms of collating results from a survey if we need a volunteer, I'll volunteer.

I did email regarding the new fixtures list and offrered suggestions, and hopefully constructive criticism.

"testing changes is quite reasonable. " I think it is essential, all surveys for empirical research should be preceeded by a pilot survey! All new ideas are always better tested.


Maybe you are right Sean C when you say You..." think the question shouldn't be "Are there too many changes happening at once", but "how can we implement change at the national level without unnecessary grief" .

[awk]

There are however various ways round this if a club chooses to take them

This whole issue that is constantly being raised is a total red herring. As Mrs H shows, there are a number of ways of clubs addressing this, if they so wish, and nothing to prevent clubs from doing it. The angst is only because clubs seem to want every i dotted and t crossed in the guidelines as to how these events should be presented. Pretty much the only tablet of stone when it comes to courses is that anybody should be allowed to be competitive on any course. Aside from that, clubs have huge latitude as to how they present those courses, and if they want to put on two parallel colour courses, or charge less for those who opt to be non-comp, or vary their charge depending on the courses run or pretty much whatever, it's completely up to them.

One of the main pieces of thinking behind the new structure was to put allow clubs to present events in ways they suit them, i.e. take more control. So let's hope clubs take it. It'll certainly be their responsibility if beginners are paying as much as the "pros".

[RanaldMacdonald]

DVO is at the moment looking at a couple of options for charging at our Level 2/Regional event at Eyam Moor in November - which will also host the VHI individuals.

One option is to charge on the basis of length of courses:
TD1/TD2 + Juniors + students - £3.00
TD3 - £5.00 (+£2.00 non-BOF)
TD4 - £7.00 (+£2.00)
TD5 - £9.00 (+£2.00)

However, this is quite complicated so we are also working out the fees on the basis of:

TDs 1-3 + Juniors + students - £3.00

TDs 4-5 - £9.00 (+£2.00)

This would mean less being charged at the entry level and more for the competitive end (not that TD1-3 isn't competitive for some). In many of our areas there is little to differentiate between TD 4 and TD5 so we might as well charge the same.

We tried not to have Colour-Coded fees at our National Event at Longshaw in December 2007 - on the basis that the costs were the same whatever course was run - but moderated our view (on the basis of complaints!).

Any thoughts?

Ranald