Choice of scale at Graythwaite National!!

[lakesorunner]

A quick note to all that entries for the National Event at Graythwaite are now open.
Following much consideration by the planner (Carol McNeill) and other club officials, LOC have taken what we believe is a unique decision to offer runners a choice of scales. The reason we have chosen this route is to make the event as good and enjoyable as possible for all competitors.
Most classes will have a choice of two scales - your 'normal' scale and also one scale larger than 'normal' (ie: M40 can choose between 1:15,000 and 1:10,000)
The courses will be identical in all aspects apart from scale - it is a straight enlargement, so the contol circles numbers, etc will all cover the same area regardless of scale.
Full details of courses and scales available are on the LOC website (follow the Graythwaite links) - http://www.lakeland-orienteering.org.uk
Also, temporary site for information is
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/ponyboyprinting/gray.pdf
Please also look out for the information boards which will be going round various events, including the British Champs, showing a section of the map a the three different scales.

Your comments on the idea of choice of scale are welcomed - LOC will publish a list of decisions made by competitors following the event.

[RJ]

Congratulations to LOC on 'taking the bull by the horns' and offering this choice of scales for each of the courses. This innovation will have a very positive effect on the sport IMHO, although the full ramifications on other major events and how the idea will develop.... we will have to wait and see. Maybe organisational mayhem and/or cost will be the over-riding consideration. If laser printing can be used for map production then the cost issue will be inconsequential.

The sport will only improve and become more 'interesting' through innovation.......

Well done!!

[Snail]

Don't disagree with innovation, but is a National Event - supposedly one of the "top" events in the UK this year - the place to try it?

And since the decision on map scales appears to explicitly disagree with the November Rules Group discussion on this specific event, it is perhaps surprising not to see any reasoned argument as to why the club feels it is appropriate to offer something different.

Would hate to see a trend towards using 1:10 for UK elite courses if IOF are going to maintain a 1:15 standard.

And if the 1:7500 scale is popular, will mappers then start surveying for that scale, and overmap? (Which is what happened in many areas when 1:10 started to takeover from 1:15 as the most common scale in use)

[Oldman]

The reason we have chosen this route is to make the event as good and enjoyable as possible for all competitors.

I find this a very strange decision indeed for a National event where the Rules on scales are explicit. Do we have National Rules for National events or not? It may be a valid experiment, but tried for the first time at a National event ....?

Has it the blessing of the BOF Events Committee and Board who ruled against the 7.5K scale? See for example http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/d ... inutes.pdf
at minute 9c.

Will my result really be comparable with someone else who has run using a map at a different scale? I think not and that's important with my small class.

Will this show competitor preferences? No, because if your rivals are taking advantage of greater clarity in larger scale (or believe there is advantage in it), you have to do that as well.

[distracted]

It would be interesting to hear the arguments for this decision - anyone care to enlighten us?

[Gross]

This is a daft decision... it nullifies any competition if athletes do not compete on equal terms. If the terrain & mapping style justify using a larger scale then argue the case & do so.........

It's kind of like running a 3000m steeplechase with different barrier heights because someone has shorter legs:)

Of course I expect we'll get all the comments about the disadvantage to those with poorer eyesight.... but if they don't match the physical condition of their competitors that's just tough luck....... getting old is an indisputable fact.....

[RJ]

Part of the arguement is in the thread title....... CHOICE!

You can run with whichever map you like. Everyone can have 1:7500 if they so CHOOSE, or some can run with a 1:10000 if they wish. CHOICE.

There is no disadvantage there. If you are a competitor who has always run with a 1:10000 and whose map reading skills and pace/speed control and distance judgement are based on that scale, then great. Same for 1:7500. Now you have a CHOICE for the event when you enter.

Although route choice is determined by map reading and visualisation, you still have to complete the course with your physical skills..... short legs or not!

[Gnitworp]

But you can't see what you're choosing until you see the map with your course on it.

[Gross]

It's a BLIND CHOICE

[guessed]

If laser printing can be used for map production then the cost issue will be inconsequential.

Assuming paper size allows, then why not print alternate scales on opposite sides of the paper. That would make it the same for everybody, AND offer choice !

[distracted]

The details claim both 1:15 and 1:10 are offset litho printed, with 1:7500 laser printed. The sharpness and clarity of litho printing is still far better than that of lasers...

[awk]

The details claim both 1:15 and 1:10 are offset litho printed, with 1:7500 laser printed. The sharpness and clarity of litho printing is still far better than that of lasers...

In principle this offering of alternative scales looks a great idea: I disagree with Gross about fair competition - as long as the information on the different scales of maps is the same then to my mind it's exactly the same - the race is a test of navigation/fitness, not eye-sight (and if it was, then magnifiers etc. would have to be banned - maybe even glasses/contacts!).
However, if one set of maps is to be lasered and one printed, that's a whole different ball game: without copies of the maps, nobody can make a sensible decision: I've certainly seen 1:7.5k laser maps that have been less readable than 1:10k offset maps of the same area. It depends so much on the printing, on the colours, on the colour density (especially green) on the map etc etc etc.

So there I agree with Gross and others: it's a blind choice, and thus unfortunately of little help in spite of the excellent intentions. I would be very concerned too if anybody drew any conclusions from it - there are too many variables in the decision making. As I said, it's a great idea, but needs sorting out properly. An area championship isn't the place to do that.

[SJC]

Assuming paper size allows, then why not print alternate scales on opposite sides of the paper. That would make it the same for everybody, AND offer choice !

I like this idea, and much more constructive than many of the other replies which, as usual, are negative as ever.

Providing everyone with both scales of map would disadvantage no-one, and a suitable questionaire at the end would give genuine feedback to the powers that be.

[mappingmum]

Well, if you don't like the proposal, I have a suggestion for you all:

Don't enter.

Entry is voluntary, not compulsory.

[King Penguin]

Back to practicalities - how will people get the map they expect at the start ? Will there effectively be a e.g. course 5A (at 1:10,000) and a course 5B (at 1:7,500), with separate boxes / bags for each ?
Will results be combined for 5A and 5B ? Will results indicate which map each person used ?

What about courses where the event is being used for selection purposes e.g. FCC. Surely these at least have to all have the same scale ?