M/W 21 turnout.

[Guest88]

I was thinking along the same lines as Graeme on this. would agree that the problem with MW21s is not really regarding the ex-squaddies, as they all have loads of contacts of their own age if they want to arrange to go on weekends away / someone to camp with at scottish etc with people.

Problem is with the novice MW21s - I can imagine if I went to a CATI for the majority of the geographic clubs as a young single MW21, I wouldn't go again.

I'm not sure I am particularly keen on trying to manipulate the demographic profile of geographic clubs - in any case it wouldn't be practical in most areas.

My preferred solution would be a nationwide open club which all new 20s and 30s orienteers get joined automatically into as well as the local geographic club. This would need to be heavily advertised on the website and heavily promoted at local events - as it may be the only thing to counteract the age demographic problem - and you need to do it fast, i think it is likely that some / many will be put off by the age demographic at their first event.

What would the club do... well it would
- camp together at the scottish
- stay together at jk, british, british sprint and middle weekend, all the urban orienteering weekends (key events for novice MW21s), SLOW half-marathon trail challenge (an excellent event), Harvester, Lakes weekend and maybe some other weekends as well.

It would be maximum gain for minimum effort. Nothing wrong with taking orienteering to schools, but that is the equivalent of cold calling. This club would be about ensuring your very interested prospects get the product (club) that meets their needs. And there is no point just doing more and more cold calling, if you don't then have the product (club) that the kid in your school (who doesn't have a keen family), will want to join a few years later when he decides randomly to turn up to an event someplace near you.

It should be a total piece of cake to get MW21s into the sport once this is there - we all know that orienteering is a very unique and enjoyable sport - nothing else like it -we have the monopoly....should be very easy.

Living in London isn't a problem for starting out as a MW21 by the way... in fact it has one of the best clubs in the country for doing so - SLOW. But a first time orienteer searching for London Orienteering on Google will find LOK first - and I don't really know but I get the impression that LOK is not quite as good (sorry if this is unfair), which is leaving the likelihood of your London novice becoming a fully paid up orienteer to chance. Maybe LOK and SLOW could merge, then all new London starters could get the benefit of joining SLOW???

[Snail]

Graeme wrote:
I think we should join ESOC.

But this would probably just lead to the same problem in 10-15 years time...

An alternative would be to merge the two clubs, but then actively run two sections - one for say 21-35s, and one for 40+ / families. Ensure that some events are organised only by the 21-35s - and give them the freedom to change things - eg put on courses they think their mates / colleagues would be attracted by, arrange accompanying socials, perhaps even apply an upper age limit to attendees

I think BOK some year ago (and perhaps still?) split into 3 teams for event organising - but more on geographical lines(?). Perhaps what we need now is a split on age lines?

There are a few areas with two adjacent (and possibly now aging / struggling) clubs where this might work.

[The Loofa]

Guest88
On behalf of SLOW I'm feeling massively flattered

Back in 2001 SLOW had a strategic review (woooooooo!!) and came out thinking that M/W21s were the top priority target - non-orienteering ones that is to take advantage of the London demographic. The first Trail Challenge was in 2002 and the annual autumn half marathon started in 2004.

Then in 2008 a couple of our M21s set up and organised the first London City Race.
For 2009 we're looking at 2 options
1) City Race on 12 Sept with TC halfM on 13th in Richmond Park, probably accompanied by a score event for City racers who aren't so running orientated.
2) 26 Sept when not only is LOK holding a district (or whatever!) on Hampstead Heath on the Sunday but the London Rat Race is on from Saturday afternoon for the weekend.
(in which case the TC halfM would still be on 13th but with no score event).

Any observations out there? It won't necessarily help us make our mind up but I'm curious.

[Tatty]

As a former member of LOK, I believe that SLOW was formed when OKNuts disbandoned and a lot of LOK members joined SLOW. Not sure they would join together again

[Copepod]

I thionk that Guest88's idea for a nationwide young adults' club is well worth considering. Although I'm not currently a member of BO nor any club (mainly due to cost - as I tend to compete in only a few events per year, due to other commitments, but they are usually in at least 2 regions (living in East Anglia [where I run a least 1 introductory session per year for a country park], worked for a year in Tyneside and have family in West & East Midlands & Edinburgh, who I have introduced to orienteering - from 5 year old niece, through cousins & their children to mum in her 60s)

Also, we're heavily into adventure racing, and often recommend new comers to that sport to try orienteering for fun, navigation practice, running training. They are generally in 20 to 40 age band, and might welcome a nationwide orienteering club. especially as there is no similar for adventure racing - the nearest thing is Sleepmonsters website.

[SeanC]

For those that like trips away the "young adults" club might work well. It might be particularly attractive to those in the south looking for some weekend scenery. Stirring a bit.. to get things going all that is needed is a section on nopesport that is "strictly for the under 40's" or whatever, then people could take it in turns to organise the weekends away - potentially not too hard: find a good sunday event, link it with a local event on saturday or good permanent course, organise accommodation, find a good pub etc. If it worked then it could become a second club along the lines of JOK, SPOOK etc so that geographical clubs aren't threatened. It just needs a few enthusiastic (not old) people to get it going.....

For those that want to orienteer locally I don't think it's that complicated. Events where most go to the pub... If people feel the need to socialise along age ranges then the younger orienteers can sit together and avoid conversations on Gardeners' World and pension funds, though all the conversation at our pub evenings seems to be about ... orienteering

[SAL]

Following the remarks made about ESOC above, I'd just like to say that ESOC very much welcomes anyone who wants to join an active, inclusive club, regardless of whether they're old fogies, families, or M/W21s. At the moment about 16% of our membership is M/W21 (that's about 30 individuals), who enjoy competing regularly at all events of all kinds.

[graeme]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to pigeonhole ESOC. Int now also has regulars at 10, 21E, 70 and all points between.

The point is that once there were two clubs with distinctive memberships and character, and that made sense. Now there are two clubs in the same place chasing the same membership in an uncoordinated way, which doesn't seem to make sense.

[awk]

Any observations out there? It won't necessarily help us make our mind up but I'm curious.

We thoroughly enjoyed the weekend format this year: two contrasting events that gave a great cross-section view of the sport. It was good seeing a group of London Uni students, most beginners it appeared, meeting up at nearby Underground station to go to Hampstead event the day after London City. Both events were blessed with excellent maps, courses, organisation and weather - which makes for great orienteering (along with being able to eat in nearby cafes afterwards, sit in the sun nattering, get to event easily by public transport, quality competitioin......)
None of us were M/W21, so probably not a lot of help. However, what attracted us were, we think, many of the things that attract that group.

[distracted]

For 2009 we're looking at 2 options...
Any observations out there? It won't necessarily help us make our mind up but I'm curious.

I'd say the option with the two events on separate weekends would be preferable, for a couple of reasons:

- as has been stated by some, time is a factor. Most newcomers probably won't be travelling far, nor for a 'weekend' of events. Also, if you're looking to attract 20-somethings, will they want to/have the time to do both events in one weekend?
- having the trail half-marathon 2 weeks before gives an opportunity to catch some of the runners and get them along to the City Race, which they might not have done otherwise.

Plus it's a bit easier on the organisation I'd guess...

[Knee Deep Mud!]

My preferred solution would be a nationwide open club which all new 20s and 30s orienteers get joined automatically into

About ten years ago the Ramblers Association had exactly the same problem as orienteering seems to be having, except probably worse. As someone in their 20s, I would not have been seen dead joining them, just because of the OAP stereotype image I had of them. Their answer was to set up a nationwide set of local groups targeted at those in their 20s and 30s. These have been a resounding sucess and have recruited significant numbers of new memebers in their 20s and 30s (me included), primarily because as new groups they can distance themselves to a degree from the stereotypes, and can put on frequent events that appeal to the target age range.

However, there is a downside. Whilst this method has been an excellent way of kickstarting recruitment in the younger agegroups, age based groups all have to face the problem of the current membership getting older. So what started out as a 20-30s group, is now becoming a 25-45 group. All the groups are now having to face the question of what do you do with with an aging population when you are an age based group? Some groups now actively kick out older members, but then what is the incentive to contribute to the group when you are approaching the day when they turn around and say 'thanks but we don't want you as a member any more'? If you set up age based groups you need to be very clear from the outset what the progression from the aged based group is going to be, otherwise you are just postponing the day when people leave and find something different to do.

Setting up a separate 20-30s group also compounds the aging effect on the existing open clubs. i.e. it will tend to steer all younger people to the new group and exacerbate the distorted age profile in the existing club.

My own view is that whilst whilst a club specifically for younger people is a good way of hooking people into the sport (my university club did that for me), it is an imperfect answer. The ideal solution is an open club which provides enough activities targeted at a younger age group to keep the recruitment levels high, but lets members grow old gracefully within the same club and group of friends. i.e. it provides a range of activities to suit all age groups, not just one small part of the age spectrum. Unfortunately, this I think is what a lot (most?) open clubs fail to deliver.

[Guest88]

I'm not sure I really agree with some of this analysis - I said they would join the national youth group as well as the local club.

The national group is just to get people socialising and staying together on national weekends / holidays - it's filling a gap in the market as the open clubs are mostly not doing this. This is different from the situation in ramblers, where it sounds from what you say that they are competing head on, for the same type of event.

Even though some people may start out only doing stuff with a national youth club, it will still actually help the local clubs as when people have families, or move towards doing local events, or local and national, the local clubs will have members who would otherwise have been lost to something else.

Re- capping the age profile - maybe, i would tend towards not being sure if this is necessary - as long as it has a critical mass within it of the 20s and 30s then I think that it can be sold to new 20s and 30s singles to the sport, that they can do some orienteering, and also enjoy the company of some people their own age. Whether there are some older people as well, who are likely to be the youthful old types who enjoy trekking around the country, camping and doing their adventurous weekends..... not sure that this is a big issue. Given the nature of what the club is doing (e.g. camping) the bias would still be much mroe towards the youthful end of the orienteering demographic.

You would definitely want to market it as youth group...want to give the impression that it is youthful based- to attract the new youngsters...like the YHA has the word youth in it... but anyone can stay at the YHA.

[EddieH]

I think the choice of the YHA as an example a very poor choice. I feel very much in my age element in most "youth" hostels, (bar from the occasional school group).

Maybe that's the point - most modern youth don't actually want that type of accomodation, and if it were what it used to be (lights out at 10.00, job in the morning....) what would they think then

[Mrs H]

I'm pretty sure the Round Table has (or had) an age limit with people getting chucked out at 40. As I recall from my reporting days most of them seemed to go on to some other organisation after that (possibly Rotary). They still seem to be going strong - must be some members on here - any info?

[SeanC]

Let's not bury Guest88's idea just yet, I think it has some potential. Details like the best accommodation can be sorted out later. I agree with Guest88, the nature of the trip could attract a critial mass of younger orienteers without it being labelled as a young persons thing.

It answers another problem faced by new orienteers of all ages who join small clubs. For those that want to travel and don't join as a family or couple, who do they travel with? Chances are that any member of my club going outside the region will be lucky to bump into another club member unless at the JK or scottish 6 day. If this going away club existed they could toddle off to the lakes, France, Venice or wherever without making it a lonely weekend.

But I wouldn't expect much help from BOF aside from maybe a bit of help with the publicity. So some more fundamental questions need to be answered if this idea is to turn into anything:

Who is going to organise the trips?
Who is going to organise membership of this club?
How will trips be publicised?
Would existing orienteers (who would perhaps travel with established orienteering friends, stay with relatives etc) use it?
Since many existing orienteers in the target demographic range read nopesport, does their silence on this topic indicate that the answer to the above is no?